Jams at class

A

AndABeer

New member
As a recent recipient of a carry permit, I felt obligated to get some formal training in the carrying of a weapon for self-defense. The class required for the permit itself was more legal than practical so I figured I needed more. I have now have two classes behind me and the main thing I have learned is I need more instruction, a lot more. I thought I knew firearms and was a decent shot but practical shooting is something else entirely. For those of you like I was, who thought that shooting a few hundred rounds a week at static targets from a static position was enough, I encourage you to seek more training. When I get a bit of my confidence back I will try some competitions as well.

Humble pie does not taste very good but it is usually good for you.

Anyway, one thing has struck me as odd. During the first class, I used a Glock 30. It jammed (FTF) 2 times in a 100 rounds. During the second class, I used a Kimber Pro Elite. It jammed 4 times in a 150 rounds. Two of the Kimber jams (FTF) could be attributed to a bad magazine, which still leaves 2, but the point is after several thousand rounds neither gun had ever jammed before, EVER. This sounds like a really stupid question but does drawing a gun from a holster affect how it will shoot? I doubt seriously if limpwristing is the cause but I'm trying to keep an open mind.
 
More License holders need to come to those realizations. I had a great teacher in a CCW class and learned quite a bit, also learned I'd need more training to become proficient.
It is surprising how many people allow themselves to be lulled into a sense of false security based on the mere presence of a gun in their possession. All it takes to be reasonably capable is a modest investment of time and money, along with a consistent effort to maintain the skill.
Once I had attended enough formal training it was maintained with dry fire practice a few times a week and 50 rounds downrange every other week. The deal with practice is to make the time count, hundreds of rounds blasted mindlessly downrange might be fun but nothing more.
 
Where the gun comes from will not affect how it shoots, but the grip will. Often in drawing from a holster, especially in a "fast draw", the shooter fails to get a solid grip on the gun and this has the same effect as "limp wristing". Sometimes, a better holster can work wonders.

There are other possibilities like whether you are using the same ammo or whether you used one kind in static practice and another in more recent training.

I congratulate you on getting more and better training. But the main thing in self-defence is the mental attitude that will allow you to keep cool and still be willing to kill. Many people skilled with guns have been victims because they simply could not bring themselves to point a gun at another human being. After all, much of self defense training is dedicated to counteracting previous safety training not to point a gun at any person. This is why people with no training can actually do better in self-defence than people who have undergone normal training with emphasis on "safety first". Drawing a gun on an armed BG is very unsafe; the idea is to make sure it is more unsafe for him than for you.

Jim
 
I'm repeating something someone explained on another forum - but it got me thinking. . . .

Do you want a gun that suffers failure when limpwristing? I mean, punching paper is one thing; but will you always have it in your strong hand, always have it in a two-hand solid grip, or do you want it to be more than a single-shot if you have to fire it while spooked, weakened, disoriented, . . . . .

Is it worth going to a weaker recoil spring for more reliability? Will this even work?


Battler.
 
Almost any auto can suffer jams from limpwristing. I still think it's worth it to learn to use the correct grip with the auto. Your best bet is to simply find a range that will allow practice of presentation from concealment.
 
AndABeer, you say "jam", but you also say FTF (failure to fire? failure to feed?). What kind of malfunction was it, specifically?

[This message has been edited by Jeff, CA (edited June 13, 2000).]
 
Had this happen to me during a competition shoot with a Taurus PT-99 that had NEVER jammed on me before.

I never satisfactorily explained away the phenomenon, but put it down to the change in my shooting grip when firing "on the klaxon". It really did make me think about getting a .38 for carry though.

Mike H
 
Check your magazines and springs.
If a normal good gun suddenly gives you fits, even after a good cleaning and lube...
Then its time for new springs. Recoil spring and magazine springs.



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You might laugh in the face of FEAR... but unless your armed, its a nervous, unconvincing, little laugh.
 
AndABeer...... I know what you mean about training. Last year I attended a 5 day, 8 hours a day, class on defensive pistol at Chapman Academy of Practical Shooting. We fired over 2,000 rounds in the 5 days. All exercises were done from the holster. I carried a .40 cal. Browning High Power and did not have one single failure of any kind. It was so informative and the instruction was so good that I am going back again this October. It's not cheap, $600 for the week and you need lots of ammo. I think It is the best money I ever spent. They also have a 3 day course for $350. If you are interested I could give you their address and phone number. Shoot Safe.....CO

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Never saw a gun I didn't
like.
TFL End of Summer Meet, August 12th & 13th, 2000
 
I have found that competition or serious training and shooting can bring out things that are not brought out in just plinking. I have had gun/ammo combos that were totally reliable for years, and the minute I got into a competition they jammed up. That type of shooting puts a new stress on your equipment. It is good to test it out.
Most jams in good guns are spring related. Magazine springs are a good bet.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff, CA:
AndABeer, you say "jam", but you also say FTF (failure to fire? failure to feed?). What kind of malfunction was it, specifically?
[/quote]

Sorry, I always assumed FTF meant Failure to Feed. Anyway, all the jams were feed jams. I am now leaning towards the ammo as the cause, Speer Lawman.

No wait!! Must have been the guns, better go buy a new one. > :)
 
Most jams from otherwise reliable guns are caused by a weak or incorrect (interfering with slide or controls) grip.

Suggest regular USPSA competition to practice firing under stress.

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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
FWIW, I've seen a number of jams during the practical classes and exams for the concealed handgun license in my state. Most applicants choose their guns carefully for this class. It's timed fire and a jam counts as a miss. So a familiar, reliable gun should be essential.

But things don't always work out. I especially recall one student on the firing line next to me who lost points when his Officer's ACP failed to eject twice in fifty rounds. He told me that he'd paid more to have this gun "tuned" than he'd paid for the gun itself. Anyway, he was standing there trying to figure out what was wrong, working against the clock--surely a good lesson for the real world, but he was not happy at the time. Meanwhile, down the line, another student was having a similar problem with a Colt's .380.

During a different session, the instructor loaned some of his own guns to a couple of the students who were taking the exam. The guns were Heritage Stealth pistols, and at least one of them repeatedly failed to eject, which was pretty disconcerting to the student. The instructor blamed the problem on an accumulation of fouling in the gun. But I'm not sure why it couldn't also have been operator error, particularly since the student was unfamiliar with the pistol.

BTW, my personal choice of gun for the concealed carry exam is either an S&W Model 639 or a Glock 17. So far, they've gone bang every time I've pulled the trigger, and I hope they keep on doing so. :)


[This message has been edited by jimmy (edited June 15, 2000).]
 
Hi, guys,

Most auto pistols function on either blowback or short recoil. Either way, there has to be enough resistance that the slide moves relative to the frame to extract and reload. If the frame can move easily, the gun jams. But limp wristing is not the only possible cause of the problem. In the old days, of all steel guns, the mass of the frame combined with the muscle strength to hold on to it kept limp wristing to a minimum.

But with polymer and alloy guns, the gun mass is simply not there, and a good tight grip is required to give resistance and lend mass to the frame. The shooter's hand and arm have to add the mass that the gun manufacturer has taken from the gun to obtain lightness.

So it is not just what we used to think of as "limp-wristing" that can cause problems; it is anything less than a firm, solid grip.

Jim
 
A fair proportion of the 40 cal GLOCK cases I pick up for reloading purposes are dented or grazed and appear to eject to the rear or 90 degree sides from the firing position... that is why I find them, they are not where the bulk of the police brass falls and is not collected for return to the depot.
Maybe this is due to "limp-wristing"(this has sexual connotations in some countries)...if so, I am grateful to Glock for making such a light 'plastic fantastic' weapon and leaving me a good % of the brass !!

I have no such problems with a CZ-75 in .40 S&W -which is all steel and drops most of it's cases 3 yards away at 100degrees - in a neat pile !!

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A thought from 'Big Bunny'...."The sword does not kill, it is a tool in the hands of the killer".... Seneca 'the younger' (circa AD 35)
 
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