jam / failure-to-fire in new Beretta 92FS

M

mrentropy

New member
Fairly beginner question:

Just took my brand-spanikn'-new 92FS (well, actually the slide says M9) to the range, and shot 100 rounds of cheap target ammo.

You know that embarrassing feeling you get when you expect a bang and all you get is a click? And you wonder if anybody heard, and you try to figure out what you did wrong? Well I do.

So I tried again, DA now instead of SA. Click.

Then tried to clear the round. It was nearly impossible. It took a good deal of strength to pull back the slide and eject it, and coordination to keep the gun safely pointed straight down range.

Then I thought, hey, let me try that again, so I made it round 3 in the next mag.

Same problem when I got to it.

And later again a 3rd time just to be 100% sure. Out of those 100 rounds, that one round just would not fire.

No dent on primer. The firing pin never reached it. Not all of the safeties disengaged apparently, and either the pin was caught internally or the hammer didn't fall all the way. And each time, it was a b^&Ch to clear.

No other problems except one stovepipe which I'm sure was probably my own fault for screwing up & being limp-wristed on that shot.

So, I'm not remotely an expert on these things (which is why I ask y'all). I've fired maybe a few thousand rounds through semi auto handguns in my life. That's all. I bought this gun explicitly to start practicing more.

What gives? I expect the round is out of spec somehow. I'll break out the calipers later and measure it. But visually, it looks *exactly* like all the other rounds (neither longer, nor shorter, etc etc). That is, other than the scratches it now has on it from my vigorous attempts to extract it from the chamber three times.

But hey, this is something that in a real situation could seriously ruin your day, you know what I mean? I mean, it's not at ALL easy to clear. Obviously for "real life" use I'd have something besides cheap ammo, and I'd test it etc etc, but still...

Ammo: Winchester 115gr FMJ.
 
Ok, on visual inspection I can see that the case of that one defective round is just *barely* - but clearly, and unambiguously - longer than all the other rounds I have of 9mm. By about 5-10 mils, I'd guess. Like, the width of a coarse hair from a boar bristle brush.

Will have to wait for tomorrow for me to dig out the dial caliper to measure for sure.

Holy cow, amazing how a few mils can ruin your day you know?
 
Since you tried that same round 3 times and got the same results, and all other 99 rounds fired fine, it's likely that round is out of spec. The Winchester white box 115gr is pretty much just cheap range ammo, I shoot it myself, but have gotten a dud here and there, one where the primer just would not ignite, and one with a backwards primer.

Keep the gun clean and lubed up and it should run fine. On aluminum framed gun's it's wise to use a good gun grease over oil. Oil is thin and can run off, grease will stay put. When you have a harder steel slide running on a softer aluminum frame grease really does a good job preventing any excess wear.

Also as I tell anyone with a Beretta, throw in a Beretta D hammer spring. It really lightens up that first long double action pull, the difference is night and day. It only costs $7 and takes a minute or two to install. This is the same spring Beretta uses in their DAO models, so it will not compromise reliable primer ignition.

http://www.brownells.com/handgun-pa...prings/hammer-spring-d-version-prod27930.aspx
 
If the case is a bit too long, the slide is not going into battery and the pistol won't fire. The gun is working the way it is designed; the ammo is bad.

Some pistols (e.g., M1911) have a bit of tolerance for out-of-spec ammo; the M9 is not one of them.

Jim
 
Hey, thanks as always for all the info. As I said, I've probably fired somewhere between, oh, 1000 to maybe 3000 rounds of ammo. I know some people do that in a week, but.... I was beginning to think I knew something.

Guess I was wrong lol.

In drills, they make it look so easy. I was amazed how hard it was to pull that slide back. I mean, I am not a weak guy by any measure, but it wasn't exactly trivial.

I'm thinking now there might be an *advantage* to getting really cheap ammo or even reloads - you learn this stuff faster.
 
I am a bit puzzled, though. I can see a too-long case sticking in the chamber, but just ordinary retracting of the slide should not take any great effort, or at least no more with the Beretta than with other 9mm pistols.

Jim
 
Maybe my recollection is off on how hard it was to pull back the slide the first time I had "click," but it was certainly hard the second time, and *very* hard the third time.

I did a little "forensics" on the defective round. The little bugger is .005" over spec in case length. Whereas, the other rounds are all .005" *under* spec in case length. (Didn't I guesstimate 5-10mil by eye? Do I get a gold star?)

I took some photos through a microscope which I'll post later. The brass rolled up at the case mouth, which caused the jam. There are also lots of fun dents and scratches from the extractor &c.

I suspect each time I tried putting that round in battery again, it caused the brass to roll up even more, making it jam in the breech even harder.

Speaking of which, terminology question here: what do you call the "ledge" in the breech where the case mouth headspaces on? Google is of no use to me on that.
 
I'll take the first crack at answering, although I am not certain.

I think that "ledge" in the chamber is called the "shoulder". Of course, we also use the term "shoulder" for the place on a cartridge where it necks down, if it is the type that has an obvious necking down near the bullet.

But I think people manage to keep the two different meanings from being a problem.

Bart Noir
 
I did have an old yellow box Super X 357 Magnum 158 gr JHP that was crimped over the ogive of the bullet. I noticed it as I was about to load it in the cylinder.
 
Mrentropy,

The 9mm (and alot of other semiauto pistol rounds) headspace on the case mouth. If the case is over length the case mouth, with the bullet still in it is slammed into the end of the chamber and can be VERY hard to extract manually.

Shorter case length is not usually a problem as the extractor usually holds the case against the breachface enough to allow the fireing pin to pop the primer. After that the process proceeds normally

This is an example of poor QC from the ammo manufacture. You can strip the pistol and use the barrel as a gauge by dropping the rounds into the chamber. The longer ones will stick out the back more then the other. Now imagine the slide slamming that extra length into the chamber.
 
This all makes sense. That's *definitely* what happened. But it got me wondering:

What happens if I have a case that's too long, the gun slide can't close all the way and lock the breech, but the passive safeties all disengage and a trigger pull drops the hammer & the firing pin strikes the primer?

Seems like that could be dangerous.... :)

I mean, that's not supposed to happen, but we kinda depend on many things all engaging or disengaging more or less all "at once", or within a few 0.001" of slide travel, don't we?

Is this one of those things that separate good gun designs from bad gun designs?

Anyone?
 
What u describe is possible but HIGHLY unlikely with the 92f pistol. If the slide is not fully in battery the hammer does not contact the fireing pin (if the hammer drops at all).

There have been a few reports of Glocks fireing out of battery. This has caused what has become known as "Kaboom's"

I would suspect that if you examine the primer on the long round, there is no fireing pin mark on it
 
What you can do is remove the barrel from your gun and do a plunk test. The plunk test is basically to test if the round will fit in the chamber.

Hold the barrel with chamber at top. Drop (not push) the round into the chamber. If you hear the plunk sound, and the round goes in all the way, and you can rotate the round in the chamber, and the round drops out by itself when you rotate the chamber do point down, then the round fits your gun.
 
The brass rolled up at the case mouth
Click to expand...

Rolled into the bullet (reduced case diameter at case mouth) - jamming when shoved past the sholder, but I would think it would have to be way past the shoulder for the firing pin not to leave a dimple.

Rolled away from the bullet (case mouth diameter enlarged) - jamming in the chamber walls, preventing pistol from going into battery, perhaps firing pin blocked in 92F (I don't have one myself, so I don't know).
 
OP has an keen eye or is acclaimated to precision to readily see 0.005". I just checked my dial caliber with the faces covered with Scotch transparent tape, the dual layer of tape appears to be 0.005". Not readily visiable to me unless A-B compare.
 
Back when I was new to handloading I used largely new/virgin Federal brass that came in a 50 pc red and white box similar to the completed ammo. Can't recall ever having an issue. Today and since I can remember WWB ammo needs checking.
 
Ammo: Winchester 115gr FMJ.
Click to expand...

That's decent plinking ammo.

Out of 100 rounds you fired exactly one round was bad.

That happens sometimes.

But hey, this is something that in a real situation could seriously ruin your day, you know what I mean? I mean, it's not at ALL easy to clear. Obviously for "real life" use I'd have something besides cheap ammo, and I'd test it etc etc, but still...
Click to expand...

One advantage of a da/sa pistol is the ability to pull the trigger again and bring the hammer down on the primer a second time. If the round does not fire then just eject the round and go on to the next.

You mention later on that you kept reloading that same round for some reason and each time it became harder to rack the slide to clear the piece. In a "real situation" you would not have done that. You would have pulled the trigger again for a second strike and if that did not work "tap, rack, bang".

If you are at the range set the poor round aside to be examined later or at your convenience.

Now and again you run across a bad round. Knowing how to clear it and get back to shooting is an acquired skill.

tipoc
 
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