Nightcrawler
New member
Does anybody know when jacketed bullets began to replace simple lead ones in general and/or military use? Thanks.
Jacketed Bullets
- Thread starter Nightcrawler
- Start date
DAVID NANCARROW
New member
for sidearms. I believe the 1911 was the first standard issue with jacketed rounds. For rifles, I think it was the 30-40 Krag
Mike Irwin
Staff
The first jacketed bullets began appearing in Europe in the late 1870s/early 1880s, and was largely a function of the continuing development of smokeless powder for military use.
The smaller bores, higher burn temperatures, and higher velocities required jacketed bullets to prevent bore fouling.
I seem to recall that one of the developers of the Schmidt-Rubin, the Swiss rifle, developed one of the first successful jacketed bullets and much of the equipment to manufacture it.
The United States adopted jacketed bullets with the Krag rifle, and some late loaded .38 Long Colt military rounds also used jacketed bullets.
Commercially jacketed bullets came in with the advent of successful autoloading pistols.
Jacketed bullets in revolvers, though, didn't start to really catch on until after WW I.
The smaller bores, higher burn temperatures, and higher velocities required jacketed bullets to prevent bore fouling.
I seem to recall that one of the developers of the Schmidt-Rubin, the Swiss rifle, developed one of the first successful jacketed bullets and much of the equipment to manufacture it.
The United States adopted jacketed bullets with the Krag rifle, and some late loaded .38 Long Colt military rounds also used jacketed bullets.
Commercially jacketed bullets came in with the advent of successful autoloading pistols.
Jacketed bullets in revolvers, though, didn't start to really catch on until after WW I.
jacketed bullets.... after boas, of course...
Sorry.
The 1871/84 Mauser shot a .43 caliber lead bullet with black powder.
The 1888 "Commission" (German) rifle shot an 8mm jacketed slug over smokeless powder to the best of my knowledge.
Certainly by 1892 and the 7x57 Mauser, bullets were jacketed and powder was smokeless.
According to Cartridges of the World, the 7.5 Schmidt-Rubin was in 1899 a "0.299 inch diameter, 213 grain paper patched lead bullet with ... semi-smokeless powder." By 1911, it was a jacketed round.
The .303 British was adopted in 1888 had a "cupro-nickle jacket" and was powered by black powder.
(So much for a unbroken correlation of smokeless powder and jacketed bullets.)
The winner seems to be the 8x50Rmm Lebel (French). Introduced in 1886, it had a 232 grain jacketed flat-nose, flat-base bullet. In 1898, it changed to a solid bronze 198 grain spitzer boattail. Powder was the new fangled smokeless stuff from the git-go.
Also to be mentioned is the 8x53 Rmm Japanese Murata. From 1887, had a jacketed bullet and smokeless powder.
As you can see, the changeover took place in the 1880s give or take, with some lagging behind.
We didn't change from the lead bullet 45-70 to the "modern" .30-40 Krag until way late - 1898!
The Scandinavian countries and other Europeans were changing in the '80s, also.
Anyone that doesn't have Cartridges of the World, go buy one!
Sorry.
The 1871/84 Mauser shot a .43 caliber lead bullet with black powder.
The 1888 "Commission" (German) rifle shot an 8mm jacketed slug over smokeless powder to the best of my knowledge.
Certainly by 1892 and the 7x57 Mauser, bullets were jacketed and powder was smokeless.
According to Cartridges of the World, the 7.5 Schmidt-Rubin was in 1899 a "0.299 inch diameter, 213 grain paper patched lead bullet with ... semi-smokeless powder." By 1911, it was a jacketed round.
The .303 British was adopted in 1888 had a "cupro-nickle jacket" and was powered by black powder.
(So much for a unbroken correlation of smokeless powder and jacketed bullets.)
The winner seems to be the 8x50Rmm Lebel (French). Introduced in 1886, it had a 232 grain jacketed flat-nose, flat-base bullet. In 1898, it changed to a solid bronze 198 grain spitzer boattail. Powder was the new fangled smokeless stuff from the git-go.
Also to be mentioned is the 8x53 Rmm Japanese Murata. From 1887, had a jacketed bullet and smokeless powder.
As you can see, the changeover took place in the 1880s give or take, with some lagging behind.
We didn't change from the lead bullet 45-70 to the "modern" .30-40 Krag until way late - 1898!
The Scandinavian countries and other Europeans were changing in the '80s, also.
Anyone that doesn't have Cartridges of the World, go buy one!
Gotta give the French the first on "practicle" smokeless powder. Vielle, 1885.
Solid bronze kinda iffy referin to jacketed slugs.
"Credit for the invention (jacketed bullets) goes to Captain Rubin of the Swiss Army, in connection with the 7.5 by 54 Swiss Army cartridge which he invented in 1889."
"Jacketed bullets were supposed to be death knell of lead bullets".......didn't happen tho as we well know.
Quoted sections are from Lyman Reloading Handbook, 1982.
I think Capt Rubin had the jacketed bullet a bit prior to the 7½X54 but it didn't get into heavy production untill the rifle was already out there...................still lookin for documentation on the whole works.
Sam
Solid bronze kinda iffy referin to jacketed slugs.
"Credit for the invention (jacketed bullets) goes to Captain Rubin of the Swiss Army, in connection with the 7.5 by 54 Swiss Army cartridge which he invented in 1889."
"Jacketed bullets were supposed to be death knell of lead bullets".......didn't happen tho as we well know.
Quoted sections are from Lyman Reloading Handbook, 1982.
I think Capt Rubin had the jacketed bullet a bit prior to the 7½X54 but it didn't get into heavy production untill the rifle was already out there...................still lookin for documentation on the whole works.
Sam
Mike Irwin
Staff
Archie,
Your numbers are a little off...
My copy of Cartridges of the World, 8th edition, on page 271 has the following infomation about the original Schmidt Rubin,
"The first Swiss 7.5mm cartridge was adopted in 1889 for the Schmidt-Rubin... The original loading used a .329-inch diameter, 213-gr. paper-patched lead bullet and a charge of 29 grains of semi-smokeless powder..."
The correlation between jacketed bullets and smokeless powder was not, by any means, definite or unbroken.
Remember, smokeless powder suitable for use in rifles was only a few years old -- the French developed the first truly smokeless powder suitable for rifle use in the early 1880s, which led to the adoption of the 8mm Lebel round in 1886.
The original loading, according to COTW, for the 8mm Lebel, as Balle M, a jacketed 232-gr. flatnosed, flat base bullet.
The flat nose was adopted because the 1886 Lebel rifle fed from a tubular magazine that ran under the barrel.
The British used a compressed pellet of back powder in the .303 until about 1890-91 because of developmental problems with their version of smokeless powder -- Cordite.
The British weren't the only ones forced to do this, either. In 1885 the Portugese adopted the 8x60R Guedes round, which also had a jacketed bullet but black powder propellant.
There is also some evidence that at least some of the early developmental work on the cartridge that became the .30-40 Krag was also done with shells loaded with black powder simply because of problems developing a suitable smokeless powder.
In my collection I also have an 11.15x57 Spanish "Reformado" cartridge that has a jacketed bullet and a blackpowder charge.
Your numbers are a little off...
My copy of Cartridges of the World, 8th edition, on page 271 has the following infomation about the original Schmidt Rubin,
"The first Swiss 7.5mm cartridge was adopted in 1889 for the Schmidt-Rubin... The original loading used a .329-inch diameter, 213-gr. paper-patched lead bullet and a charge of 29 grains of semi-smokeless powder..."
The correlation between jacketed bullets and smokeless powder was not, by any means, definite or unbroken.
Remember, smokeless powder suitable for use in rifles was only a few years old -- the French developed the first truly smokeless powder suitable for rifle use in the early 1880s, which led to the adoption of the 8mm Lebel round in 1886.
The original loading, according to COTW, for the 8mm Lebel, as Balle M, a jacketed 232-gr. flatnosed, flat base bullet.
The flat nose was adopted because the 1886 Lebel rifle fed from a tubular magazine that ran under the barrel.
The British used a compressed pellet of back powder in the .303 until about 1890-91 because of developmental problems with their version of smokeless powder -- Cordite.
The British weren't the only ones forced to do this, either. In 1885 the Portugese adopted the 8x60R Guedes round, which also had a jacketed bullet but black powder propellant.
There is also some evidence that at least some of the early developmental work on the cartridge that became the .30-40 Krag was also done with shells loaded with black powder simply because of problems developing a suitable smokeless powder.
In my collection I also have an 11.15x57 Spanish "Reformado" cartridge that has a jacketed bullet and a blackpowder charge.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Sam,
The original bullets for the 8mm Lebel were NOT solid bronze.
The Balle D projectile, which was a piece of lathe-turned bronze, was adopted in 1898, and saw the French through WW I.
In 1932, Balle 32M was adopted, which had a lead core, a soft steel jacket, and a final outer coating of cupronickle.
I've got examples of all three types in my cartridge collection.
The original bullets for the 8mm Lebel were NOT solid bronze.
The Balle D projectile, which was a piece of lathe-turned bronze, was adopted in 1898, and saw the French through WW I.
In 1932, Balle 32M was adopted, which had a lead core, a soft steel jacket, and a final outer coating of cupronickle.
I've got examples of all three types in my cartridge collection.
Mike Irwin
Staff
No, Sam, you certainly didn't, but to quote your own word from the rebound slide spring thread...
The INFERENCE was there.
The INFERENCE was there.
Ain't it fascinatin'?
Obviously, the transformation from lead to jacketed was not a one piece, uniform event.
It also depends on the source. My information in this matter came from Cartridges of the World. I'm too lazy to go look at the edition, but within the last couple years.
I once read a monograph written by a Frenchman, regarding firearms development. J. M. Browning got a small mention, Peter Paul Mauser did not exist.
Still, Nightcrawler, it looks like jacket bullets came into more or less general use in the 1880's. Roughly the same time as the smokeless powder change, but not absolutely linked to it.
Another thing I've always been curious... the 303 British was originally a black powder loading. Why was it so much smaller in bore diameter than all the other military black powder rounds? The reason that BP rounds are generally large is to deliver more power: BP can only throw bullets so fast, so a larger projectile is needed for more delivered energy.
So what was the breakthrough for the 303 British and the Portugese Guedes round? (And any unnamed other?)
By the way Mike, you're correct on that date for the Swiss S-R. I must have missed a key stroke.
Obviously, the transformation from lead to jacketed was not a one piece, uniform event.
It also depends on the source. My information in this matter came from Cartridges of the World. I'm too lazy to go look at the edition, but within the last couple years.
I once read a monograph written by a Frenchman, regarding firearms development. J. M. Browning got a small mention, Peter Paul Mauser did not exist.
Still, Nightcrawler, it looks like jacket bullets came into more or less general use in the 1880's. Roughly the same time as the smokeless powder change, but not absolutely linked to it.
Another thing I've always been curious... the 303 British was originally a black powder loading. Why was it so much smaller in bore diameter than all the other military black powder rounds? The reason that BP rounds are generally large is to deliver more power: BP can only throw bullets so fast, so a larger projectile is needed for more delivered energy.
So what was the breakthrough for the 303 British and the Portugese Guedes round? (And any unnamed other?)
By the way Mike, you're correct on that date for the Swiss S-R. I must have missed a key stroke.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Archie,
The .303 British was originally supposed to be a smokeless powder round, but the British ran into developmental problems with the Cordite and had to revert to black powder for a couple of years.
The round that the .303 was replacing, the .577/.450 Martini Henry, was a typical blackpowder round for the period, large case holding approximately 80 grains of black powder.
That was likely the case with other rounds that were being developed around the same time.
I think, though, that the 8mm Guedes round may be an exception. I think it was developed as, and adopted as, a blackpowder round.
The .303 British was originally supposed to be a smokeless powder round, but the British ran into developmental problems with the Cordite and had to revert to black powder for a couple of years.
The round that the .303 was replacing, the .577/.450 Martini Henry, was a typical blackpowder round for the period, large case holding approximately 80 grains of black powder.
That was likely the case with other rounds that were being developed around the same time.
I think, though, that the 8mm Guedes round may be an exception. I think it was developed as, and adopted as, a blackpowder round.