Jacket separation problems w/ Rem. standard ammo, or just the golden sabre?
- Thread starter long shot
- Start date
Who is reporting this?
Where is the report, or link?
I use GS as my defence load.
I kinda need to know.
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BOYCOTT SMITH AND WESSON!!!
Defend the Constitution from the foreign threat!!!!
Yeah, I got a permit to carry,it's called the friggin Constitution.---Ted Nugent
"Man killing is nasty business"---Finn Aggard
Where is the report, or link?
I use GS as my defence load.
I kinda need to know.
------------------
BOYCOTT SMITH AND WESSON!!!
Defend the Constitution from the foreign threat!!!!
Yeah, I got a permit to carry,it's called the friggin Constitution.---Ted Nugent
"Man killing is nasty business"---Finn Aggard
denfoote, one of the sources was Shawn Dodson, in a reply to my post golden sabre vs gold dot. He said he experienced jacket separations in various calibers while testing golden sabre bullets.
This however was not the first I've heard of this problem.
I was just curious if Remington's standard jhp's suffered from this problem as well.
Maybe Shawn will reply & we can get some insight into both of our questions.
{long shot}
This however was not the first I've heard of this problem.
I was just curious if Remington's standard jhp's suffered from this problem as well.
Maybe Shawn will reply & we can get some insight into both of our questions.
{long shot}
I reported this happening to me on Glocktalk about a year ago, though I'm sure I'm not the first person to notice the jacket separation. Shawn Dodson did as well, though I don't remember when.
I basically was performing expansion tests in saturated Honolulu Yellow Pages. I don't have the ability to test scientifically, so I have to use these books. That aside, I've noticed that in terms of expansion (not penetration) that phone books seem to mimic denim covered gelatin.
Using a (borrowed) Glock 30, I wanted to test some loads to see how they expanded from the shorter barrel. Remington 185gr JHP +p performed beautifully, expanding to .87". The jacket came off after the second book was penetrated though, but the core penetrated another whole book. I was satisfied with this and keep this load in my P12 now.
However, the Remington 185gr GS standard velocity was a dismal failure. The lead core penetrated nearly four books, and the jacket separated and lodged in the second book. Core expanded to only .471, but the jacket opened up to .6. Strangley, the GS 230gr, even out of the shorter G30 barrel outperformed the faster (900fps vs. 780fps) 185 gr. load. It penetrated 3 1/4 books, expanded to .64, with NO jacket separation.
I also tested a bunch of other .45 loads that day, as well as a bunch of 10mm loads from a Glock 20. Let me know if you want me to post them.
Tom
I basically was performing expansion tests in saturated Honolulu Yellow Pages. I don't have the ability to test scientifically, so I have to use these books. That aside, I've noticed that in terms of expansion (not penetration) that phone books seem to mimic denim covered gelatin.
Using a (borrowed) Glock 30, I wanted to test some loads to see how they expanded from the shorter barrel. Remington 185gr JHP +p performed beautifully, expanding to .87". The jacket came off after the second book was penetrated though, but the core penetrated another whole book. I was satisfied with this and keep this load in my P12 now.
However, the Remington 185gr GS standard velocity was a dismal failure. The lead core penetrated nearly four books, and the jacket separated and lodged in the second book. Core expanded to only .471, but the jacket opened up to .6. Strangley, the GS 230gr, even out of the shorter G30 barrel outperformed the faster (900fps vs. 780fps) 185 gr. load. It penetrated 3 1/4 books, expanded to .64, with NO jacket separation.
I also tested a bunch of other .45 loads that day, as well as a bunch of 10mm loads from a Glock 20. Let me know if you want me to post them.
Tom
I read Shawn's original post and I don't have anything to add with regard to actual performance, but if you look at both bullet, you would think that Gold Dot would have more of a problem with this than Golden Saber -- I guess you can't judge a book by it's cover or a bullet by it's looks.
Share what you know, learn what you don't -- FUD
Share what you know, learn what you don't -- FUD
riddleofsteel
New member
I DON'T THINK THE PHONE BOOK TEST SHOULD BE TAKEN AS A CONDEMNATION OF THE GS BULLET.
i tested the Golden Saber with dummies made from water jug hearts, wet packing foam lungs, green stick ribs and dressed in various clothing. the GS was the round that held together best while giving reliable expansion most all of the time.
now.... NO bullet will expand every time and hold together under all condiations. all we can hope for is to have a bullet that will do it all MOST of the time. i am currently testing the .40 Gold Dot for such performance but until i detirmine it to be as good i will be carring the 165 .40 Golden Saber.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
i tested the Golden Saber with dummies made from water jug hearts, wet packing foam lungs, green stick ribs and dressed in various clothing. the GS was the round that held together best while giving reliable expansion most all of the time.
now.... NO bullet will expand every time and hold together under all condiations. all we can hope for is to have a bullet that will do it all MOST of the time. i am currently testing the .40 Gold Dot for such performance but until i detirmine it to be as good i will be carring the 165 .40 Golden Saber.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
riddle:
I agree with you. This one bullet (185gr GS) failed in a decidedly unscientific test, much as yours performed is same.
Still . . .
However, my wife, like you, trusts her life, and our family's, on her BHP .40 with Rem 165gr GS. I suppose this will be one of my next "subjects".
Tom
I agree with you. This one bullet (185gr GS) failed in a decidedly unscientific test, much as yours performed is same.
Still . . .
However, my wife, like you, trusts her life, and our family's, on her BHP .40 with Rem 165gr GS. I suppose this will be one of my next "subjects".
Tom
Clark Kent
New member
Here's a link to Shawn's test results of personal defense ammo, including Golden Sabre and Gold Dot:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs31.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs31.htm
Acording to what I Just read in Shawn's link, the .45acp, and the .40 cal RGS gave optimal performance. I shoot 9mm. The closest to that tested is the .40cal. I think that the 124gr RGS would give similar results. No reason to throw out the baby with the bath water yet. If anyone can point me to a test of the 124gr RGS, let me know.
------------------
BOYCOTT SMITH AND WESSON!!!
Defend the Constitution from the foreign threat!!!!
Yeah, I got a permit to carry,it's called the friggin Constitution.---Ted Nugent
"Man killing is nasty business"---Finn Aggard
------------------
BOYCOTT SMITH AND WESSON!!!
Defend the Constitution from the foreign threat!!!!
Yeah, I got a permit to carry,it's called the friggin Constitution.---Ted Nugent
"Man killing is nasty business"---Finn Aggard
riddleofsteel
New member
in the link to Shawn's tests notice the only round to get "Satisfactory on both columns;
165 grain Golden Sabers out of a 3.5 inch .40 cal
add to that the hard brass jacket feeds like greased chicken snot thru every gun i have fired it in and you have got a winning combo.
------------------
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
165 grain Golden Sabers out of a 3.5 inch .40 cal
add to that the hard brass jacket feeds like greased chicken snot thru every gun i have fired it in and you have got a winning combo.
------------------
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
Riddleofsteel, the 40 165gr. GS actually scored "optimal" in the tests, 12-16in penetration range, which is the standard set by FBI/IWBA.
In my post GS vs. GD, Shawn replied as follows,"I've seen lots of Golden Sabre bullets (of all calibers) lose their jackets after passing through heavy clothing. The brass jacket expands beautifully but the lead core does not. It appears to me that the drag forces on the jacket petals as the bullet penetrates causes it to detatch from the core". He also states in the same article, that he thinks the GD is superior to the GS.
In addition, I've heard other reports that Remington developed a "bonded" Golden Sabre load for law enforcement, after some agencies complained of the same problem.
What I really would like to know, is if Remington's standard jhp's perform in a similar manner in the same tests.
Good Shootin'...{long shot}
In my post GS vs. GD, Shawn replied as follows,"I've seen lots of Golden Sabre bullets (of all calibers) lose their jackets after passing through heavy clothing. The brass jacket expands beautifully but the lead core does not. It appears to me that the drag forces on the jacket petals as the bullet penetrates causes it to detatch from the core". He also states in the same article, that he thinks the GD is superior to the GS.
In addition, I've heard other reports that Remington developed a "bonded" Golden Sabre load for law enforcement, after some agencies complained of the same problem.
What I really would like to know, is if Remington's standard jhp's perform in a similar manner in the same tests.
Good Shootin'...{long shot}
FYI
I've never shot any Rem. GS but the following information may be of interest.
3-4 years ago I was kicking around the idea of starting a company of producing a line of quality self defense, hunting and police ammunition. My plans were to enter the market to compete with the Cor®Bon ammunition. Cor®Bon ammunitions premise is MV equals a better self-defense round.
Knowing this I needed to work up loads (components) that would equal or better Cor® Bon and still be safe (pressure) I didn’t have a pressure gun so I looked for all telltale signs of overpressure including micing the fired cases etc I was able to accomplish my goal. Let me say this, I believe that Cor®Bon really pushes the envelope in their loadings. And they produce quality ammunition.
Once the trigger is pulled its all in the bullet as to what happens next so I needed a to find a bullet that would expand, penetrate and not fragment.
I purchased Hornady, Sierra, Nosler, Winchester, Remington and Speer bullets. I also pulled some HydraShock for loading. Loads were worked up for the for following: 380, 9Mark, 38 Spec., 357 Mag., 41 Mag., 44 Spec. 44 Mag., 45ACP & 45 Colt
Of all bullets I tested one brand outperformed all others in never losing a jacket. The bullet was the Speer Gold Dot. The only problem I had was out of a 2” Colt 38 Spec. the GD didn’t want to expand all the othe GD loadings did expand except the above loading and when I went to a four inch barrel I got the expansion in the 38 Spec. My choice in that 2" barrel load was a Sierra 125 HP. The reason as to why the Speer’s held together may be in their manufacturing process called Hot-Cor in which they pour molten core into the jacket to produce the bullet. This bonds the lead to the jacket.
I shot the bullets into probably the worst media to check on the penetration and fragmentation.
I shot each bullet (10 rounds per string) into an 11” diameter balloon filled with water this expanded the bullet (some manufactures bullets didn’t expand) then they passed into cardboard box filled with deflated scrap balloons. If any thing would seprate the jacket it would be these vulcanized natural latex balloons they won't much give.
Was this test very scientific? Not really but it did tell which bullets met my criteria.
So did I start the business? Nope When I set down figured what it would cost for the pressure gun & barrels, production, inspection, packaging, marketing etc etc and the big one liability cost it wasn’t worth it.
You all have a good day.
Turk
I've never shot any Rem. GS but the following information may be of interest.
3-4 years ago I was kicking around the idea of starting a company of producing a line of quality self defense, hunting and police ammunition. My plans were to enter the market to compete with the Cor®Bon ammunition. Cor®Bon ammunitions premise is MV equals a better self-defense round.
Knowing this I needed to work up loads (components) that would equal or better Cor® Bon and still be safe (pressure) I didn’t have a pressure gun so I looked for all telltale signs of overpressure including micing the fired cases etc I was able to accomplish my goal. Let me say this, I believe that Cor®Bon really pushes the envelope in their loadings. And they produce quality ammunition.
Once the trigger is pulled its all in the bullet as to what happens next so I needed a to find a bullet that would expand, penetrate and not fragment.
I purchased Hornady, Sierra, Nosler, Winchester, Remington and Speer bullets. I also pulled some HydraShock for loading. Loads were worked up for the for following: 380, 9Mark, 38 Spec., 357 Mag., 41 Mag., 44 Spec. 44 Mag., 45ACP & 45 Colt
Of all bullets I tested one brand outperformed all others in never losing a jacket. The bullet was the Speer Gold Dot. The only problem I had was out of a 2” Colt 38 Spec. the GD didn’t want to expand all the othe GD loadings did expand except the above loading and when I went to a four inch barrel I got the expansion in the 38 Spec. My choice in that 2" barrel load was a Sierra 125 HP. The reason as to why the Speer’s held together may be in their manufacturing process called Hot-Cor in which they pour molten core into the jacket to produce the bullet. This bonds the lead to the jacket.
I shot the bullets into probably the worst media to check on the penetration and fragmentation.
I shot each bullet (10 rounds per string) into an 11” diameter balloon filled with water this expanded the bullet (some manufactures bullets didn’t expand) then they passed into cardboard box filled with deflated scrap balloons. If any thing would seprate the jacket it would be these vulcanized natural latex balloons they won't much give.
Was this test very scientific? Not really but it did tell which bullets met my criteria.
So did I start the business? Nope When I set down figured what it would cost for the pressure gun & barrels, production, inspection, packaging, marketing etc etc and the big one liability cost it wasn’t worth it.
You all have a good day.
Turk
BrokenArrow
New member
I think the std Rem JHPs are excellent. Do not fall apart as easy as the GS, expand even better at times. Lottsa bang for your buck. Some big flash, but not too bright, though too bright for some. The newest 357 SIG load is very good.
INS/BP has contracted for Rem 155 JHPs in 40 a few times, last contract was split between Rem and Fed for std 155 JHPS. US Secret Service liked the old 115 +P+ load just fine.
If it goes deep enough and gets big enough, I really don't care if the jacket stays or goes along for the ride anyway.
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INS/BP has contracted for Rem 155 JHPs in 40 a few times, last contract was split between Rem and Fed for std 155 JHPS. US Secret Service liked the old 115 +P+ load just fine.
If it goes deep enough and gets big enough, I really don't care if the jacket stays or goes along for the ride anyway.
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>>>>---->
Does it matter? Having been there, I don't really care if the jacket gets separated from the core if the SOB is stopped. And for that matter, I want two holes in his worthless hide for every shot fired, one in and one out, more to leak from.
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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
I just wanted to add a little reality check here. We all love to see how bullets perform on different media to give us an *idea* of their potential performance,however the best test in the world is still just a test. Lab results obtained under lab conditions are only truly accurate in predicting what a load will do in a lab under those exact conditions. The real world is a far more chaotic place. For example I`m pleased to see so many are testing ammo performance through cloth layers. However the standard is 4-5 layers of heavy denim! Have you ever seen someone walking down the street wearing 4 or 5 denim jackets at once? Me either. Of course it`s still a good indicator of which bullets will be affected more by cloth plugging than others but the exact results have little to do with real life. It would be interesting to see some accurate tests done with the same load being shot into bare gelatin,T shirt clother gel.,T shirt and flannel shirt clothed gel.,flannel and winter coat composed of nylon and thinsulate clother gel etc. etc. That information would IMHO be much more usefull. Basically what I`m saying is that while testing loads is good thing I wouldn`t get to upset if one "fails" an arbitrary test here and there. 
Marcus
Marcus