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issuing military pistols
- Thread starter CLC
- Start date
Crazy88Fingers
New member
I can't speak with any real knowledge about who gets them. Certainly anyone who may see some combat.
But they aren't for show. They're a back-up to the soldier's primary weapon (usually a rifle). Or, I imagine in some cases, his only weapon. They can also be useful for fighting in very cramped spaces. For example: in the Vietnam war the US troops used to send whoever happened to be the skinniest guy around into Vietnamese tunnels with a 1911 and a flashlight to clear them out.
But they aren't for show. They're a back-up to the soldier's primary weapon (usually a rifle). Or, I imagine in some cases, his only weapon. They can also be useful for fighting in very cramped spaces. For example: in the Vietnam war the US troops used to send whoever happened to be the skinniest guy around into Vietnamese tunnels with a 1911 and a flashlight to clear them out.
When I was in, 11b, I was only issued a pistol when I became a 60 gunner. Other then that I know officers had them. Don't know about support or non infantry units, seems like they may have more of a use for them. The pistol in my case was intended for self protection, (machine gun mounted on a tripod you can't protect your back side in a fighting position.) I've also seen snipers issued handguns.
Kreyzhorse
New member
A good friend of mine was a Navy medic in Vietnam and was issued a 1911 as a sidearm.
I believe that sidearms are reserved to specific positions and rank. I am not an expert however.
I believe that sidearms are reserved to specific positions and rank. I am not an expert however.
kaylorinhi
New member
Who gets Pistols?
That is a much more complicated answer than you think, lets get the basics:
Officers,
Staff Non-Commissioned Officers(Senior Non-Coms),
Any person who's primary weapon is too (long,heavy, unwieldy) for person protection,
Members who will be in gunfights(-100m) and no time to fix a Malfunction or Stoppage of their primary,
Many other countries their pistols are issued to allow officer not "have to" carry those heavy large guns around all day. If the person issued the pistol has thumb-break other quick-release type holster he probably actually needs his secondary other wise it is a status symbol.
And Pilots...
That is a much more complicated answer than you think, lets get the basics:
Officers,
Staff Non-Commissioned Officers(Senior Non-Coms),
Any person who's primary weapon is too (long,heavy, unwieldy) for person protection,
Members who will be in gunfights(-100m) and no time to fix a Malfunction or Stoppage of their primary,
Many other countries their pistols are issued to allow officer not "have to" carry those heavy large guns around all day. If the person issued the pistol has thumb-break other quick-release type holster he probably actually needs his secondary other wise it is a status symbol.
And Pilots...
In my experience it depends on your job and what you're doing. When I was an SP in the USAF in the early 80s I was issued an M16 when working the flightline, weapons storage areas, etc, got a S&W M15 when working the gate, got a cut down M16 (XM-177 maybe?) when working as an armorer for the weapons storage area.
My son is a USAF TACP, while in Afghanistan he was issued and M4 and a Beretta 9mm.
My son is a USAF TACP, while in Afghanistan he was issued and M4 and a Beretta 9mm.
Pistols are issued by position in the Army. Each unit has authorization documents for personnel positions and equipment. This dictates who is issued a pistol or rifle. Some people have themselves issued a pistol who are not authorized because they are too damn lazy to carry a rifle if there are extra pistols.
Misssissippi Dave
New member
While I was in the Air Force, pistols were issued only to officers, certain security police and people who had confined areas for their war time duty positions. Other then that, you got things like a M-16 rifle. There were some that were issued grenade launchers, shotguns, M-60 machine guns etc. Some EOD (Explosive Ordinance Disposal) personnel even used a single shot .50 cal. rifle to help blow up bombs.
Most enlisted personnel only had a M-16 issued. Most officers were only issued pistols. The exceptions were for Security police, EOD, Command and Control, Combat Controllers, Air Crews and the like. The majority didn't fall into those groups. You might see a lot of marksman ribbons on uniforms but not a lot of marksman ribbons with devices. The devices were for qualifying as marksman with different weapons such as rifle and pistol would be ribbon and one device.
Most never got a choice of what they would carry. You just carried what you were issued and hoped it was enough to get the job done.
Most enlisted personnel only had a M-16 issued. Most officers were only issued pistols. The exceptions were for Security police, EOD, Command and Control, Combat Controllers, Air Crews and the like. The majority didn't fall into those groups. You might see a lot of marksman ribbons on uniforms but not a lot of marksman ribbons with devices. The devices were for qualifying as marksman with different weapons such as rifle and pistol would be ribbon and one device.
Most never got a choice of what they would carry. You just carried what you were issued and hoped it was enough to get the job done.
I was a USAF Aerial Gunner and issued a Colt .45 to carry while on a mission, never on base. My main weapon was a gun turret with fifties, and that came with the plane.
An old time gunner (ye gads, the guy was over 30) taught us how to modify our holster for a cross draw because it was the fastest way. He said a hip carry was good only for the movies or a one-way ticket to hell, and proved it. Our standard holster was shoulder, which he said was better than a hip holster, and proved it.
Considering the luxuries of a Chinese POW camp we decided the only use of the .45 was to take as many with us as we could. Fortunately I was never shot down and put to the test if I had the guts to do it.
An old time gunner (ye gads, the guy was over 30) taught us how to modify our holster for a cross draw because it was the fastest way. He said a hip carry was good only for the movies or a one-way ticket to hell, and proved it. Our standard holster was shoulder, which he said was better than a hip holster, and proved it.
Considering the luxuries of a Chinese POW camp we decided the only use of the .45 was to take as many with us as we could. Fortunately I was never shot down and put to the test if I had the guts to do it.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Since the question covers both past and present, the answer is "It depends." On when you're talking about, and position as well as rank.
In WW1, trench warfare, most "grunts" had a 1911 for close quarters defense in case their position was overrun -- in addition to their battle rifle. I believe the same was true for most grunts in WW2.
In Vietnam, most of us grunts were issued an M16, and that's all we were issued. Officers got a sidearm, some instead of an M16, some in addition to an M16. People in specialized roles got sidearms -- tunnel rats, for example, carried 1911s when clearing tunnels because an M16 was too unwieldy in the enclosed spaces.
Fast forward to Iraq and Afghanistan, and it appears (based solely on what I read, I haven't been there) that more ordinary grunts are again being issued a sidearm as a backup to the M4 carbine. Again, this seems to be because of the increased likelihood of encountering close quarters combat.
There is no simple answer to this question. You almost have to run it down unit-by-unit for each conflict.
In WW1, trench warfare, most "grunts" had a 1911 for close quarters defense in case their position was overrun -- in addition to their battle rifle. I believe the same was true for most grunts in WW2.
In Vietnam, most of us grunts were issued an M16, and that's all we were issued. Officers got a sidearm, some instead of an M16, some in addition to an M16. People in specialized roles got sidearms -- tunnel rats, for example, carried 1911s when clearing tunnels because an M16 was too unwieldy in the enclosed spaces.
Fast forward to Iraq and Afghanistan, and it appears (based solely on what I read, I haven't been there) that more ordinary grunts are again being issued a sidearm as a backup to the M4 carbine. Again, this seems to be because of the increased likelihood of encountering close quarters combat.
There is no simple answer to this question. You almost have to run it down unit-by-unit for each conflict.
In most of the units I've been in, except my current one, it's been limited to SGT 1st Class and above. Most enlisted soldiers never touch an M-9 unless they are an MP, medic, or a tanker. When I first came in all they would give medics was a pistol. Once Iraq started they finally started letting medics have rifles. In the 90's they claimed it was something to do with the hague convention. But when we trained with the germans, I noticed all of thier medics had G-3s.
I believe that in may armies an officer carried a pistol to control his troops. He could exicute a solder who showed cowerdice in the face of the enemy. Think Red Army. Think Chinese Army.
I dont think a side arm as been standard issue to troops in the U.S. army since early 20th century. And that was the cavelry who still fought from horseback.
During my hitch I never left the U.S. proper. As I remember it the the only people who ever carried handguns were Officers, and senior NCO's. But this was stateside, and mostly for show. While my platoon had a whole bunch of them... no one ever used them. They always stayed locked up in the arms room.
I dont think a side arm as been standard issue to troops in the U.S. army since early 20th century. And that was the cavelry who still fought from horseback.
During my hitch I never left the U.S. proper. As I remember it the the only people who ever carried handguns were Officers, and senior NCO's. But this was stateside, and mostly for show. While my platoon had a whole bunch of them... no one ever used them. They always stayed locked up in the arms room.
The major historic purpose of the handgun in military use has been as a symbol of authority and used for crowd control, both of one's own troops and civilians. It's purpose in actual fighting is usually relegated to CQC, mainly indoors where a battle rifle is less than practical and handgrenades not practical.
A modern military still adheres to these principles in general but often uses the sidearm more for "police" type uses. The modern combat rifle, which has become smaller, lighter and almost as lethal as a battle rifle, means the pistol is even less a factor than in the past, but curiously the U.S. military has purchased them in huge quantities, larger than in the past.
A modern military still adheres to these principles in general but often uses the sidearm more for "police" type uses. The modern combat rifle, which has become smaller, lighter and almost as lethal as a battle rifle, means the pistol is even less a factor than in the past, but curiously the U.S. military has purchased them in huge quantities, larger than in the past.
I don't know what its "suppose to be", it was Dependant on the Units TO&E (Table of Organization and Equipment). As i said that was Suppose to Be but was really dependent on what was going on.
In SE Asia we weren't suppose to go anywhere with out a weapon. If one thought he really needed a weapon, then he would take his issued weapon be it a Rifle or Machine Gun. In the rear or Fire Base, and you were going to chow or to pick up the mail, you grabbed a pistol if you could find one. No one likes to drag a M-60 through the chow line. I had one I carried but few soldiers would carry a pistol to the field, simply because for the weight of the pistol you could carry an extra canteen of water or more ammo. I've never seen anyone carry a pistol as a primary weapon in the field, even officers and medics.
At night you never wanted to fire a '60 from your position unless things really got bad, they looked like a trip flair, so when it was your turn to stand guard you borrowed your position Buddy's '16.
Even senior officers on fire-bases carried '16s, you might see them in the TOC with a pistol but outside they had their rifles and pistols (they weren't carrying ruck's).
When I was in the Guard, my issue or assigned weapon was a rifle but I always carried a pistol because I was too lazy to pack around a rifle on FTXs 'n such. But if I needed a weapon it would be a rifle.
My wife was deployed at the first part of this (Iraq) war. She worked of CFLCC C-2. Her assigned weapon was a M16/203 but she never carried it, she carries the M-9. I don't think she seen the rifle from the time she got there until she left. She was stationed in Camp Doha working for 3rd Army C-2, they would run back and forth between Doha and Baghdad in Rented SUVs (this was in 2003). They weren't suppose to leave Doha without a weapon but weren't required to carry one unless they left base.
I went to Kuwait to stay with her for a while. When she picked my up at the Kuwait Airport I looked around and didn't see her weapon, I asked her about it and she said she had one, pointed out a squirt gun on the dash.
I see a lot more soldiers carrying pistols w/rifles now then I use too, but supply is a bit better now, soldiers now have access to cases of water bottles now, they don't have to carry 5 or so canteens of rice paddy water so weight isn't as critical.
In my 25 years in the regular army and NG, except for reading a TO&E, I don't think I've ever seen written rules or regulations on who carries pistols. Regardless of the TO&E it was based on need or want to, if you were sent to the chopper pad on a mail run, you'd grab a pistol if there was one laying around.
I think right now, If I was playing army, and thought I needed a weapon, I'd take a rifle and leave the pistol in the arms room, if I was just hanging around the rear or peace time soldiering I'd want a pistol.
In SE Asia we weren't suppose to go anywhere with out a weapon. If one thought he really needed a weapon, then he would take his issued weapon be it a Rifle or Machine Gun. In the rear or Fire Base, and you were going to chow or to pick up the mail, you grabbed a pistol if you could find one. No one likes to drag a M-60 through the chow line. I had one I carried but few soldiers would carry a pistol to the field, simply because for the weight of the pistol you could carry an extra canteen of water or more ammo. I've never seen anyone carry a pistol as a primary weapon in the field, even officers and medics.
At night you never wanted to fire a '60 from your position unless things really got bad, they looked like a trip flair, so when it was your turn to stand guard you borrowed your position Buddy's '16.
Even senior officers on fire-bases carried '16s, you might see them in the TOC with a pistol but outside they had their rifles and pistols (they weren't carrying ruck's).
When I was in the Guard, my issue or assigned weapon was a rifle but I always carried a pistol because I was too lazy to pack around a rifle on FTXs 'n such. But if I needed a weapon it would be a rifle.
My wife was deployed at the first part of this (Iraq) war. She worked of CFLCC C-2. Her assigned weapon was a M16/203 but she never carried it, she carries the M-9. I don't think she seen the rifle from the time she got there until she left. She was stationed in Camp Doha working for 3rd Army C-2, they would run back and forth between Doha and Baghdad in Rented SUVs (this was in 2003). They weren't suppose to leave Doha without a weapon but weren't required to carry one unless they left base.
I went to Kuwait to stay with her for a while. When she picked my up at the Kuwait Airport I looked around and didn't see her weapon, I asked her about it and she said she had one, pointed out a squirt gun on the dash.
I see a lot more soldiers carrying pistols w/rifles now then I use too, but supply is a bit better now, soldiers now have access to cases of water bottles now, they don't have to carry 5 or so canteens of rice paddy water so weight isn't as critical.
In my 25 years in the regular army and NG, except for reading a TO&E, I don't think I've ever seen written rules or regulations on who carries pistols. Regardless of the TO&E it was based on need or want to, if you were sent to the chopper pad on a mail run, you'd grab a pistol if there was one laying around.
I think right now, If I was playing army, and thought I needed a weapon, I'd take a rifle and leave the pistol in the arms room, if I was just hanging around the rear or peace time soldiering I'd want a pistol.
m.p.driver
New member
As M.P.'s we all carried .45's as our primary weapon,females were given the option of a .38 if they couldn't handle the recoil.Secondary weapons depended on the environment,in cantonment in the states we usually carried 12ga. shotguns.Honduras was M16's with a 203,M60's,an occasional M3,and M2's on top of the Jeeps.
So during WWII could grunts purchase their own sidearms?
Even as late as Vietnam, military rules for using personally owned weapons in a combat zone were pretty lax. Today, that is a definate no-no.
Even as late as Vietnam, military rules for using personally owned weapons in a combat zone were pretty lax.
The policy was "No Privately owned weapons" but as you said, some units were pretty lax. In the rear, from what I seen they held to the policy, but it the field it was a different matter. I've seen lots of PoWs and never heard anyone say anything. Guys just kept them in their pocket when they got back to the rear. I've seen a lot of Smiths, N frames and Snubby Ks that were never military issued revolvers.
In my unit, if you could hump it, you could carry it but like I said earlier, an extra canteen had more priority.