Issues with reloading .45.

B

bigbadbowtie

New member
Ok guys, I have been reloading 9MM and .223 for a few years now and all has been well. I recently bought dies for .45 acp. I'm using a Lee carbide die set. I got a deal on some Ranier plated 185 grain. It seems no matter how much crimp I apply I'm still able to push the bullet in to brass. I'm crimping them enough it's leaving a crease in the bullet. Any ideas????
 
Are to using a roll crimp, or a tapered crimp?
I use Lee dies, but I only use the bullet seating die roll crimp on revolver rounds.
I use a seperate Lee taper crimp die.
Also even with the taper crimp, you can push the bullet back into the case if you push hard enough.
 
Any ideas????
Click to expand...

Yes, I have a couple, but you might not like them...;)

First, "got a deal on plated bullets".. this is most likely the source of your problem. SOME plated bullets are crap. Too soft (under the plating) or maybe not the proper size.. get some jacketed slugs, load exactly the same way, and see if there is an issue. Or you could do the same with good quality hard cast lead bullets, IF you have some you can "trust".

Second possibility, your dies. I'm not a fan of Lee dies. there might be an issue with your sizer, or your expander plug. OR maybe its your technique? If you over expand the cases (too deep) you won't get a good bullet grip, no matter what crimp you use.

Lots of things possible, might even been things in combination. Change ONE thing at a time, until you cure the problem. Easiest and cheapest, get a box of quality jacketed bullets and load them. If they work ok, your plated bullets are the problem. If not, we look at the dies themselves, and the way you use them.

Since you have loaded 9mm before, without the problem, its likely not your technique (adjustments).

Lee dies are the cheapest on the market, and there's a reason for that.

Good luck, and let us know what happens..
 
I had similar problem when I started loading 45 acp. I was using a batch of old brass my friend gave me. They have been reused countless number of times. They had inadequate grip on the bullets. Most of them were Remington Peters (RP) make, and they tended to be thinner. I got rid the whole batch. The new batch had everything but RP. I haven't had the same problem since.

-TL
 
Just for giggles, try this please:

Resize like 5 pieces of brass. Don't worry about primers or powder for now, let's just work on case mouth tension.

Take those 5 pieces and before you flare the case mouths, spin the flare die OUT so it does nothing, nada, zero. So it barely touches the case and does NOTHING to it.

Then turn it a half turn in, see if you can place a bullet on the case mouth and invert the brass with the bullet staying in the case. If it falls off, give the die another half turn and attempt to flare again. The idea here is that you want the -LEAST- possible flare you can get away with. The LEAST.

Next, take your bullet seater die and unscrew the die body way way out of the press. Run the case up with a bullet and it shouldn't seat the bullet at all...

Screw the seater plug down bit by bit until it DOES seat a bullet where you want, and impart NO CRIMP WHATSOEVER OF ANY MANNER.

Now...
See if that round has case mouth tension and grip on that bullet.

Report back.
 
Pssst.... with semi-auto pistol rounds, the "crimp" you are applying is a taper crimp and it does NOT HOLD THE BULLET IN PLACE. That is not the function of a taper crimp in .45 ACP.

The function of taper crimp in .45 ACP is to un-do the case mouth flare and prepare the cartridge for proper fit in the chamber.

Attempting to use a taper crimp to forcibly "hold" a bullet in to a .45 ACP case is a bad idea and usually will not work.

A bullet is held in a .45 ACP case properly when:
--sizing die sizes the case properly
--flare die doesn't ruin the case
--bullet is of proper dimension
--taper crimp is not OVER done, ruining everything
 
Or you could do the same with good quality hard cast lead bullets, IF you have some you can "trust".
Click to expand...

Except if I may, 'hard cast' is better in high pressure/velocity calibers such as 357, while 45acp likes a softer lead alloy.
 
At the risk of asking the obvious,
Have you gauged the bullets?
Then gauged the prepped cases?

Sounds a lot like expanding rod might be oversized, or the bullets undersized...
 
Pssst.... with semi-auto pistol rounds, the "crimp" you are applying is a taper crimp and it does NOT HOLD THE BULLET IN PLACE. That is not the function of a taper crimp in .45 ACP.

The function of taper crimp in .45 ACP is to un-do the case mouth flare and prepare the cartridge for proper fit in the chamber.

Attempting to use a taper crimp to forcibly "hold" a bullet in to a .45 ACP case is a bad idea and usually will not work
Click to expand...

^^^^^^YUP^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
Candidates listed thus far in well thought out posts:

1. Undersized or poor quality bullets
2. Overworked brass / too many reloads
3. Improperly adjusted expander / too much bell or flare of mouth
4. Excessive crimp affecting tension on bullet
5. Poor quality reloading dies

I'm betting on #3 as most likely cause. Having the expander ball adjusted too far down undoes some of the resizing ruining tension on the bullet.

I've shot a lot of Rainier bullets, doubt they are the problem, but worth checking for sure.

I doubt its the dies, but it is possible. Once long ago I had to change out the expander ball to one with smaller diameter to stop this problem, but I think that was in .45 Colt not ACP.

I've had #2 happen to me, with 9mm brass many years ago, not by finger push, but bullets sinking deeper upon chambering (bullets were seated properly for gun in question). Scary as it could spike pressures badly in 9mm. Since then I have kept track of # loads even with handgun range brass. .45 ACP brass can go a long time and many loads, but probably not forever.

A good taper crimp, IMHO applied as the separate 4th step, is important. Like 9mm .45 ACP headspaces on the case mouth (sort of) and needs the edge of the brass snug but not digging into the bullet. Very important point made - the purpose of crimp is not bullet tension, true if you're trying to use the crimp for bullet (neck) tension you're introducing other problems.
 
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First let me correct AMP 44. A good deal on Rainier bullets is worth sharing. They are great bullets. I just finished loading my last 500 two weeks ago.
Lee's 45 dies are very good. Been using the same set for several years.

From your description it seems like your flare is to much and your bullet is getting set to deep because of it. The guy who said start from zero again is on target.

My personal practice is to do every stage one at a time until it is exactly right. Then I run the process. If there is an issue it becomes pretty easy to spot. I can not find it I stop document it and ask questions, research until I fond the answer.

My initial die setup takes 2 - 3 hours. But once right I lock it down and the only time I have to adjust is when I change bullets like going from Rainier to Xtreme and that is do to the bullet style.
 
This is why I like this forum so much. Lots of great info.

They are in fact Rainier bullets. I usually shoot RMR bullets and have had GREAT luck with them but the local Cabelas had these on sale a few weeks back so I jumped.

I am using the Lee 4 die set. I'll start from scratch again and do as suggested. I'm traveling OCONUS for two weeks so it may be after that but Im hoping to do it tonight.

Thanks again
 
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I always had trouble getting enough bullet pull with any jacketed or plated .45 under 230 grains, and some of the early coated bullets, too. I tried most of the above recommendations and nothing helped. I used up the bullets on hand by loading them in the thicker brands of brass with minimum flare.

I just avoided light short slick bullets for a long time, then I learned about the undersize carbide sizer made by Lee for EGW. The "U" die sizes the case down smaller and bullets seat with a pronounced "coke bottle" effect. They don't set back against the feed ramp.
 
Yes, forgot about the u die. Someone suggested to me, but I didn't try it. I reckoned thicker brass would do the same, and I always have more brass than I know what to do with them anyway.

-TL
 
First, try some RCBS dies. RCBS seems to always work, Lee not so much. Some brass is thicker, Rem brass seems thinner, I like the Rem for cast bullets. .452 to .453 on cast bullets. I've not had problems since I quit using the Lee sizing die for .45.
 
This is just a FWIW thought; Why are newer reloaders so attracted to plated bullets? When I start reloading a new to me cartridge (and I suggest this to any new reloader that will listen) I start with a tried and true load/list of components. Jacketed 230 gr. RN bullets for a 45 ACP won't break the bank and have been used for reloads mebbe 1.783 bizillion times. Every possible problem has been worked out and reported on, if not online, then in gun rags or reloading manuals. I have only reloaded/fired about 1,000 rounds of plated bullets in my semi-autos and other than a little cleaner fingers afterwards, there is no advantage that I could see. My cast lead bullets don't lead the barrel anymore, and they are cheap and accurate. If I want to run some bullets at higher velocity, I'll use jacketed bullets.

I see a lot of questions online from newer reloaders about problems they are having with their reloads using plated bullets (crimp, diameter, velocity, load data, etc.) that experienced reloaders would have no problem figgering out. Mebbe it's partially because reliable data isn't easily found?

I'm not anti-plated bullets, just think a new reloader's approach should be a different. Using a proven load/components until one gets the "hang" of reloading a new-to-them cartridge...

Rant over. :rolleyes:
 
First, let me respond to Dozier Mark...

I didn't say the bullets WERE the problem, I said it was likely they were. I've used plated bullets from different sources in 9mm, .357, .45ACP and .45 Colt. Some were very good, some less so. My experience is that the quality and consistency of plated bullets can vary a lot, between different makers, and even between batches, so I put them first on my list of things to check when an issue arises, IF it does.

Brass: Yes, some can be "too thin" although I personally have never had that issue. I've been loading .45ACP since the early 1970s. My mixed brass stash includes several boxes worth of brass from those days. I've reloaded them, literally, dozens of times, and while a case does crack from time to time (maybe half a dozen in the last 40 years, I don't anneal them) that is the only issue it has ever given me, with GI brass or brass from the major US makers (including RP).

I even have a few cases headstamped RA 18, and other than being a dark brown that tumbling doesn't make shiny, no issues with them, either.

Dies: I use mostly Lyman or RCBS. I have a couple LEE die sets, and as I said earlier, I don't like them. A personal matter, I don't care for the way they do some features. They do work, I'm just not fond of them. ANYONE can have a "bad" die, meaning just enough out of the tolerance range you need, although again, I've never had it happen to me, personally.

It is quite possible that the OP's problem is the result of "stacked tolerances", and changing just one thing can stack the tolerances in a different way, and the problem goes away (or sometimes just changes...;)

The relationship between thickness of the brass, actual diameter of the sizer, actual diameter of the bullets used, and the expander matters. Crimp matters. A bad crimp can turn a good round into a bad one.

Except if I may, 'hard cast' is better in high pressure/velocity calibers such as 357, while 45acp likes a softer lead alloy.
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I agree and disagree, depending on where you draw the line between hard and soft. I use the rule of thumb. Meaning, whether or not my thumbnail can leave a deep gouge, a small dent, or just a bright spot on the bullet.

My experience is that the .45ACP semi autos don't do well with dead soft (pure lead) bullets, and often don't like the slightly harder swaged slugs. "Medium" hard (small dent) works ok, and hard (bright spot) works well. Revolvers, of course, don't care.

I currently feed a couple of 1911A1 pattern guns, a Sig, two revolvers and a semi Tommygun with my reloads, with "hard" cast bullets, with no issues.

for the .45ACP hard cast bullets benefits are in feeding, (hard lead "slides", soft lead can "stick") more than velocity performance. In magnum calibers, hardcast shines, as one can use more of it's benefits.

The problem of neck tension in .45ACP is long known. Not a problem when everything is done right (stacked tolerances), but can be one when something is just a little bit off. Take a look at GI ammo, and old commercial stuff, and note how a LOT of it has a case cannelure, or even an actual crimp, to keep the bullet from going deeper in the case, no matter what.

Most current commercial ammo no longer does this, dropping the extra work (and cost) from making the best ammo practical to making the best ammo generally acceptable. I do understand that. I don't like it, but I do understand it.

Some people think that bullet setback (poor neck tension) is something inescapable, but it isn't, if rounds are made the right way, instead of just good enough to work (once).

One fellow I know got 2 boxes of Federal 185gr JHP when he got his .45, in 1980. He shot it all but one mag full, which he kept as his home defense ammo. FOR OVER 20 YEARS!!!!

Those rounds had been cycled through the action so many times the nickel plated cases had brass stripes. The bullets NEVER MOVED. (yes, it was checked and measured, often). Those rounds did get fired in the early 2000s, and guess what? flawless performance, shot to perfect point of aim, just like they did in 1980. That ammo was built RIGHT!!! It CAN be done, but these days, I think it seldom is....
 
"...Are to using a roll crimp, or..." No roll crimps with .45 ACP or any other pistol cartridge.
Measure the diameters of the bullets. It's highly unlikely any defective die parts or bullets got past the assorted QC types, but "good deals" may be seconds, etc. Takes seconds to check a few for diameter and roundness. Rainer's are .451".
"...attracted to plated bullets..." Sometimes mandated by indoor ranges. Lotta unnatural fear of lead poisoning too. That takes a great deal of long term, constant, exposure to make you into a pencil(yes, I know it's graphite. snicker.) I think plated stuff is faddish, myself. Not that anyone cares what I think.
 
I have returned to loading 45 ACP after many years and had to re organize.

First of all Rainer bullets are excellent for target practice. They are very accurate in my Colt 1911.

45s are one of the low pressure rounds that totally depend on a tight fit with out a crimp. Don't let that fool you.

First size and prime then you need to give the bullet a place to start so you bell the mouth of the case. NOTE just enough to hold the bullet when loading the bullet before seating.

Then when seeting the bullet the die (must just close the belled case mouth) so the case fits in the chamber.

The finished round should be measured with a caliper at the mouth and then just behind the mouth whare the bullet is seeted. The measurement should be the same.

And that's all thare is to it.

Note With the 1911s it is important to get the correct (over all length) OAL my book gives a OAL of 1.275 That's what I use and it feeds perfectly.

When you get the dies adjusted correctly.

The plunk test is in order.
 
Came home early to finish packing and decided to fix the issue. I backed out my expanding die 1/4 turn as a starting point. Case was just barely big enough to hold the bullet. Seated the bullet with no crimp and it's SOLID. I did a before oal measurement, chambered, unloaded and remeasured.....No setback. I loaded 10 more rounds and they seem good to go.

It seems .45 is way more sensative to being over flared than 9mm. I will go to a heavier bullet from now on as well.

I truly appreciate the help guys!!!
 
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