issues with .44 mag, blackhawk and reloads

G

GTNMUDY

New member
Maybe someone can help here.
I have a .44 mag super blackhawk that I have had for 50 yrs now.

I have been reloading for it for the same years now.

My only load is 21 gr, 2400, 240 gr JHP, cci priner.

I have shot this revolver for many years and last week I ran into a problem.

At least 1 or 2 times in 6 shots the cyl will get real hard to turn, I am unable to cock it using the hammer. In most cases I need to either take the cyl out or turn it by hand with assist of the hammer cock.

When I go back home I checked the brass thinking maybe the cases had streched after the round went off.

After checking 30 cases every one was within case specs.

Length was constant 1.285 or less

I then did a case width at the base and every one was .458 or less.

I then did a resize on some of the cases and after a full length resize the case was .457 in the width.

I checked the cyl for build up and see none.

I checked the cyl width and it comes out .458 - .459

After removing the old cases and inserting live rounds in the cyl it will cock and turn easy.

My thought was after the round goes off the brass case is pushed back against the frame and does not go forward back into the cyl when I recock it.

I'm going to really scrub the cyl and take it back out to the range.

Any ideas :confused:
 
*IF* I'm understanding the post correctly,
The only time the jam is happening is when fired?

Two things come to mind right away...

1. When fired, your cases are getting old and allowing the primers to creep backwards.

2. Your crimp isn't holding the bullets in place,
When fired, the bullets are walking forward out of the cases into the frame/barrel edges.

3. You didn't say you use the same primers/bullets every time,
When primers back out, undersized or sloppy primer pockets, they leave a track around the frame face, back of the cylinder, real distinct.
Some primers are a tad smaller in diameter than others.

Bullet manufacturers ASSUME you are going to measure cartridge length every time, so they move canalures up & down the bullet, leave more lead sticking out of the jacket, so sometimes you can use the same brand or type of bullet and get 'Long' seating.
 
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My thought was after the round goes off the brass case is pushed back against the frame and does not go forward back into the cyl when I recock it.
Click to expand...

Old, tired. nickel brass may not spring back after firing, as much as plain brass.
May cause the condition quoted above.
 
I will rule out the case crimp. I do a heavy crimp due to also having a Marlin 1895 in .44 mag.

I thought about primer too.

Checkd and they are all flat and seated after the shot.

In fact the show the milling marks on the face of the frame at the firing pin location.

I did find some of the brass that was slightly wider about 1/3 up from the base and was difficult to insert back into the cyl.

I did notice at the range that when the cyl was stuck their was no gap between the base of the brass and the frame.

I will admit that some of the brass I have is about 30 yrs old :D

I started reloading back in the 70's...
 
May be an issue with the revolver and not with your handloads
Click to expand...
I would suspect that also. In the early seventies I had a S&W Model 58 (.41 Magnum), that I bought used. I found that if I shot the identical cast lead bullet handloads that the Winchester cases would eject normally whereas the Remington cases would stick in the chambers hard enough that I would have to use a piece of wood to tap on the ejector rod. I suspected that the cylinder had developed too much barrel/cylinder gap and the difference between the rims of the Remington to Winchester brass was enough to make the difference in extraction. I got rid of that gun.

If your gun had no issues for fifty years and now all of sudden ties up the cylinder, I would check the cylinder/barrel gap...I suspect it has shot loose.
 
Checking the gap would be easy to do.

Do you know what the gap should be?

Second thought I can get it when I go back to work.

I'll just measure the gap on a new one and compare to mine.

My gap is .003

I work in a gun store part time.
 
I would make sure to clean the front and rear faces of the cylinder and the face of the forcing cone. Lead and carbon can build up on the forcing cone and front of the cylinder and cause the cylinder to get sticky just as you describe. Use a stiff brass brush to clean those surfaces and see if that helps.
The only other cause I can think of, and it's a long shot, is that carbon or lead is building up on the cylinder pin, between the pin and the cylinder or on the cylinder stop bolt. A thorough cleaning of the action and light oiling should take care of that.
 
Well I noticed that your load is pretty much at or near the red-line according to my Hornady manual. I'm not saying it's too hot, but just maybe... try loading perhaps 24 rounds, which would be four cylinders full, at 20 grains powder which would be a full grain less than usual. Starting from a clean gun, shoot them all off to see if the problem repeats itself. What brand of brass are you using? Mixed brass? Segregating your brass could isolate the problem to one brand. Maybe get some brand new Starline brass. After decades of shooting jacketed bullets, I suggest cleaning the gun thoroughly and then re-cleaning the barrel with a copper-solvent. Your barrel/cylinder gap is very good, better than most new revolvers.
 
The load I'm using has been my accuracy load that I have tested for several years back in the late 70's. My gun likes this load the best.

I got the load from my Speer #8 manual. It is the lowest load they list for the 2400 powder (21.0 - 23.0 gr) using a CCI 350 primer

Mow when I look at the newer Lee reloading manual it does not list the Alliant 2400 powder that I have been using for the last 30 some years.

The Alliant website also lists it a 21 gr for a 240 gr bullet.

I know that due to liability issues now a days companies are reducing all there data to a lower level than what it was back in the old days.

Hell, I even loaded 27 gr of 2400, with a 240 gr bullet. it was a compressed load that was in a Elmer Keith article that I read back in the late 70's.

I only shot 20 of them, they made my hand sting after the first shot. :eek:

I think the issue may be the old brass. The brass is mixed and has been reloaded several times.

I think I'll try some new brass and see what happens.
 
Primers Not Seated Correctly

This should be easy to diagnose hands-on, but nothing but guessing here . . .

However, I have seen this exact symptom numerous times, and it is pretty simple - check your primers BEFORE you fire the rounds; what they look like after is meaningless.

If your bullets are not pulling out from recoil and binding the cylinder, the next most common issue is simply the primers not being seated quite flush with the case, and they bind up on the frame as the cylinder rotates.

I know you said you have been loading these rounds for a bazilion years without problems, but maybe your equipment is wearing and getting sloppy, or maybe the primer pockets are getting heavily fouled, or maybe you are just getting old and do not use the same force to seat primers anymore? Lots of possibilities, but next time you feel it binding up, just stop and look.
 
I think you saying that it is not the load that just went off that is causing the bind but the next one being rotated to the fire position has the primer back out due to the recoil?.

In my case I don't think that is the issue because one I get the fired bullet off the fire position it will rotate the new bullet easily. It seems that it is the bullet that is fired is not moving back into the cyl to give me a gap .

If you look at the primers on my loaded and the ones I just shot you will see that the milling marks are on the fired primers. This would tell me that the recoil of that shot has pressed against the frame when the case moved back.

I know that it isn't a primer seating all the way in during my reloading because if that was the case then the cyl would not rotate freely when it is loaded with the bullets. In my case it does rotate freely until I fire a shot off.

As stated earlier it is not every bullet that I have issues with, it is maybe 1 or 2 that will cause the issues.
 

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Old, tired. nickel brass may not spring back after firing, as much as plain brass.
May cause the condition quoted above.
Click to expand...

^^^This, especially with stiff loads like 21 gr of 2400 under a 240 gr pill. Doesn't have to be nickle plated brass either. Old work hardened regular brass will do it also.
 
Quote:
Old, tired. nickel brass may not spring back after firing, as much as plain brass.
May cause the condition quoted above.
^^^This, especially with stiff loads like 21 gr of 2400 under a 240 gr pill. Doesn't have to be nickle plated brass either. Old work hardened regular brass will do it also.

I think this is the answer....;)
 
As far as primers not being seated deeply enough goes.... that usually shows itself while loading the single-action revolver, before a shot is fired. A lot of us even make it a habit to spin the cylinder upon loading to be doubly sure. Some guys go so far as to do this as a final inspection of their reloads before they go back into the box for storage. But you have to rotate the cylinder a little bit for each round loaded and even if you don't spin the cylinder, some of the rounds as they approach the final position before firing will be dragging if they have a high primer. Still, it's a good habit to give the cylinder a brief spin after loading. It's not a show-off-flourish; it has a purpose. It takes no time or thought once it becomes a habit. I only really think about it if, for some reason, it doesn't spin smoothly, or, in this case, to explain its purpose.
 
Been loading 44mag SBH since the 70's. I'm on my 4th one and I've never loaded max loads more than 5-7 times. My top load was 24-25 gr of H-110. I had some trouble with the factory base pin getting loose. Since I went to Belt Mountain, haven't had any issues with it or my 5 other Blackhawks.
 
Simple to Diagnose; No Point in Arguing

You have been given numerous suggestions on what could be causing the issue, but it seems like you just want to argue how none of them could be true. Why?

Unless your SBH is somehow different than mine, this could not be much more simple to diagnose. There are very few places that a cylinder could bind up. With the exception of something like galling on the center pin or broken mechanisms, it can only be at the front by the barrel face, or at the rear between the case heads and the frame. When you hold the gun sideways against a light background, you can see an air-gap at both places UNLESS something is protruding too far and binding. So just look, and put this to rest. (Make sure the muzzle is pointing down when you do this, as the simple weight of the loaded rounds in the cylinder will cause them to slide back and close that gap if the gun is pointed up.)

On the slight chance that your eyes are not good enough for such a simple test, an alternative is to load the gun with ammunition that allows the cylinder to fully turn without binding, then grab a set of feeler gauges and select one that will easily slip through the gap both front and rear. Next time you feel it bind up, just slip that same feeler gauge in and you will instantly find the problem.

You briefly mention in post #5 that you actually looked at this gap, but apparently did nothing with what you found. If somehow a fired case was forced backwards out of the cylinder, and then stuck there because your cylinder is damaged or fouled, then you would easily be able to measure the "missing" gap between the case rim and the cylinder face. If the entire cylinder is being forced back and then bound up by the mechanism, you would easily be able to measure the "missing" rear gap in the greater front gap at the barrel.
 
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Yes, I would first identify the mechanical issue, i.e. where it binds, and then speculate on the causes. Not really following the age of the brass angle. Whenever I have had similar issue, it was a proud primer, a bullet ogive that was too long, or the base pin had edged loose.
 
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