Issue FBI handguns

AEM

New member
There is evidently a lot interest in what various military and law enforcement agencies are issued, and what they actually carry as well. It occurred to me that I have some first hand information about FBI issue weapons which might prove interesting.

My brother has been an agent since 1975 or so. I am a lot more interested in firearms than he is, so I have always paid attention to anything having to do with Bureau weapons. When he trained at Quantico, the FBI was in the process of transitioning from 4" heavy barrel S&W Model 10s to shorter barrelled models. This was before S&W announced the Model 13 .357 for the civilian market, which utlimately was adopted by the FBI. The trainees were issued 4" Mod. 10, which had been deactivated in some way, probably by removal of the integral firing pin on the hammer. The grips were painted bright red to indicate their non-firing status. The trainees were encouraged to practice reloading and dry firing on their own time. They were issued Buchheimer thumb-break holsters and a carrier for six extra rounds grouped by two. The agents were taught to grab and load two at a time.

My brother called me from Quantico when he was issued his duty weapon, and I had him describe it for me. I have examined it many times since and measured the barrel, but when I heard about it, I couldn't make sense of it because it wasn't a production model.

It is a round-butt Model 10, steel framed, blue finish. Inside the yoke, the designation says "10-(something)", like 10-3 or 10-4. I'll have to ask him what the number is after the dash. It is chambered for .38 special, not .357, and is so marked on the barrel. The barrel is is the same heavy barrel diameter as was used at the time on the four inch model, but it was 2 1/2 inches from muzzle to rear of the threads. This configuration has never been cataloged to my knowledge, and I have looked for it. A few years later, S&W introduced the Model 13 as the "FBI gun," but it is chambered for .357 and has a three inch barrel. The three inch length is probably better, especially since it allows the use of the longer extractor rod, but the 2 1/2 inch model is an interesting little revolver. I'd love to know how many were produced! It was issued with standard S&W magna grips and a Pachmayer rubbler grip adapter. The issue ammo was the +P 158g. lead HP we all now know as the "FBI load."

My brother was always interested in something lighter, and the FBI would let agents carry a personal weapon, as long as it met certain criteria. Each personal weapon had to be examined and approved in advance. It had to be rated to fire the +P ammo, so alloy frames were out. I had the impression that very few agents carried personal weapons as primary, but second guns were OK if approved. I recall him saying that Model 60s were very popular as second guns, but I don't know if that means that the second gun had to be +P rated.

By the mid-eighties, the Bureau was experimenting with 9mms, but my brother didn't care for them. His prejudice was reinforced when a female agent killed herself with an accidental discharge from her semi-auto she carried as a second gun, apparently a .380. She was at home in her apartment, preparing to clean the weapon when it discharged, hitting her in the stomach. she called her office and reported what had happened, then lost consciousness. Her co-workers called for emergency services and then a bunch of agents rushed to her home address. They had the apartment building, but didn't know the apartment number, so they started at the ground floor, pounding on the doors and breaking them down when there was no response. She was found dead.

Nevertheless, the semi-auto trend continued, and my brother would periodically hear rumors that they were going to phase out all revolvers. He would keep a low profile until the commotion subsided. Finally, a couple of years ago, he was issued a Sig 228 with spare mag, holster and mag pouch and required to qualify with it. For now, he still has his .38 but when he asked if he could buy it, he received an unequivocal NO.

The only .38 ammo I ever saw him with other than the 158g lead hp was some Hydra-Shok 130g. JHP +P.

In addition to the handgun, he qualifies regularly with the 12 guage and the AR-15. He is a good shot and knows how to handle the weapons even though he isn't particulary interested in firearms. That indicates good training, I think.
 
Hi AEM! Enjoyed your story. Maybe you can contribute to this thread:

[Link to invalid post]

Regards, BigG

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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts, it may not kill him... sometimes they die slow, but it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up.
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
 
AEM,

Interesting thread, thanks.

My Dad was an SA in the '40s and '50s. I believe his issue sidearm was -- much as you have described it -- a Smith .38 Special mounted on a .44 frame.

His "personal, daily carry" weapon was a Colt .380 hammerless model 1908, which I now own; this seems substantially "under-gunned" to me.

Hope this helps.
 
Glad you found the topic interesting. On the subject of female agents and firearms generally, my brother reports that the women who make it into the FBI are pretty determined. They aren't given any concessions in the physical training or firearms qualification. He feels genuinely sorry for the small ones when he sees them qualifying with the 12 guage, firing slugs from prone!

After the 1986 shootout, when the gun magazines were abuzz with the 10mm story, I would ask him if he had heard anything about the 10mm. He would report that it was still in the works, but it never really happened. I understand now that the Bureau is issuing .40 S&W Glocks, but as I said he ended up with the SIG 228 9mm. He had a choice between SIG and another make, S&W I think. The word among the agents was that the SIG was the better choice, and I seconded that opinion!
 
Interesting thread. I've an old Army buddy who resigned his commission in the early 90's(he was bored as a Scuba Det Tm Ldr in 10th SF Grp) and entered the FBI.

Upon graduating from the academy, he was issued the S&W in the 10mm, "lite" version that the bureau has specified. As I understand it, it produced ballistics similar to the now immensely popular .40 S&W. There was a major problem with the Smith's the bureau had purchased...they had specified some spec changes to the weapon (don't ask, I don't have a clue) that essentially rendered the weapon totally unreliable. As Smith was, at that time, unwilling to make a fix as they had merely complied with the bureau's design requests, a big pissing contest ensued. In the interim, the bureau bought SIG 226s or 228s in 9mm which is the piece that my friend carried for several years. The last time I spoke with him, the new recruits were,in fact, being trained with .40 Glocks and were issued that weapon upon graduation at Quantico. I believe the old guys can still carry the SIGs if they desire, but I'd need to confirm that.

I recall going to the FBI range at Quantico with my friend to put a few rounds down range...this was in 1991 or 1992, and seeing one or two agents (who preferred them) shooting S&W Mod 13s with the 3" bull barrel and round grip configutation. They shot the 158gr LSWCHP +P loads...my friend shot the issue 9mm round at that time, the 147gr Hydra Shock by Federal.

Mike
 
I believe the problem and the resultant pissing contest between the FBI and S&W was the FBI specified a frame mounted decocking lever a la Sig pistol and S&W reluctantly complied. When it didn't work correctly the FBI insisted S&W fix it under warranty. S&W balked insisting the FBI dictated frame mounted decocking lever was their design and if they wanted it fixed they would have to pay more. The FBI then abandoned the S&W pistol.
 
I had the opportunity to serve a search warrant the other night and our unit was assisted by two local FBI guys. Both agents are on the local FBI SWAT team. One was armed with a Sig P226 loaded with 147 gr. Federal Hydra Shocks. Looked like the other one was armed with the S&W 10mm. Both had H&K MP-5's chambered in 10mm. They informed me that for the last two years they have been hearing they were supposed to receive the new 1911 .45's but nothing yet. Also, last time the one agent went to Quantico, they offered to replace his 226 with a new .40 Glock. He said he declined and kept his Sig.
 
the company i work for currently has about 5 of these 2.5" model 10 heavy barrel .38SPL. interesting little gun, but it doesn't balance well for me. looks a little odd too.

as for the S&W 1076, the FBI really screwed up here. they asked that the mag safety be removed (which wasn't a problem), and the trigger grouping modified...which was the problem. apparently, these modified 1076FBI guns triggers seized up rendering the gun incapabably of firing because the slide and trigger locked up. S&W did fix the 1076FBI guns (through an agreement that was eventually reached) so that they wouldn't seize up (i suspect they reverted them to S&W's original specs). there r still agents carrying the 1076FBI, but there r 1076FBI guns available used on the market. these have a warning on the gun that states that there is no mag safety in the gun.

interestingly, there is a product advisory for the civilian S&W frame mounted decocker guns. i have a copy here:

http://marina.fortunecity.com/harbour/347/10h/sw/s_wadvisory1076.jpg

my 1076 has never had a malfunction and shoots everything i feed it.

of all the guns that the FBI has issued of late, i really like the SIG/SAUER P228.

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Mik

<A HREF="http://"http://marina.fortunecity.com/harbour/347/10mm.html"" TARGET=_blank>my 10mm page</A>
 
I can't understand why the FBI is still using the subsonic 147g. 9mm ammo, like the HydraShok. I guess they are still really concerned about getting enough penetration after the 1986 shootout, but isn't it pretty clear now that the hot 124g. and 115g. jhps are the way to go?

I can see how they might not want to go as light as 115g. I saw one report that the FBI had analyzed its shootings and found that a very high percentage involved perps in or around vehicles. With the chances of auto glass being involved pretty high, I wouldn't be comfortable with 115g., but I would think the 124g. jhps would be a better compromise between penetration and expansion than the 147g. rounds.
 
I've asked three long standing LEO firearms instructors that I know about which 9mm weight. Two, at seperate times, answered 147 without any hesitation. The third answered 147 for situations which may require penetration, and 124 or 115 where only soft targets would be encountered.

I subsequently choose 147.

Erik
 
Most of the federal LEAs are given choices as to what they carry. The FBI switched from P226s and P228s to Glock 23s/22s I believe.

But my LEAs carry either Glocks or Sigs.

BTW: While no outright concessions are made, the federal law requires that physical tetsing be modified equating to a reduction in the physical performance requirements. Several years ago when I was testing, the women at these trials could not keep up.

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The Seattle SharpShooter
If it can't shoot jacketed rat turds powered by mouse farts, I ain't gonna shoot it!
 
A little more info. I spoke with my old friend (FBI SA)last night. He said that he'd just picked up his new Glock .40 about two weeks ago and had already put quite a few rounds through it.

Although he likes the weapon and carries it daily, he elected to keep his SIG 226 9mm for use in serving warrants and other planned ops where there is greater potential for the STHTF. He just has greater confidence in the SIG, having carried and shot it for so many years.

Mike
 
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