Israel's IDF is Overly Complacent!

roger-ruger

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With over 40,000 IDF troops in the border with Lebanon awaiting orders for further Military incursion, is the IDF overly complacent or plain stupid? With so much troops on the ground on standby it is just too tempting for Syria and Iran to launch a possible air to ground assault on the borders that may cause maximum casualty on the IDF. What if a well planned air raid by the Syrian and Iranian air force sneaks in and wipes out the IDF infantry and mechanized divisions surely the balance of power would greatly shift and leave Israel open to possible ground incursions from Hezbollah, the Lebanese troops (if they decide to join) or Paratroop drops from Syria and Iran. Or worse, Hezbollah could launch biological weapons, using Katyusha, Fajr missiles, etc., and still inflict maximum casualty.

I hope those IDF troops has got enough air-cover for a possible scenario.
 
What if a well planned air raid by the Syrian and Iranian air force sneaks
Well planned air raid by Syria or Iran? Dream on. 1) During the last air war between Syria and Israel, IIRC, the score was Israel 80, Syria 0. 2) Take a look at a map. How would Iranian aircraft get from Iran to Israel? They would have to cross the Persian Gulf (heavily patrolled by the US), cross Saudi Arabia (also heavily protected), and then cross Jordan. Iranian aircraft would be challenged long before they reached Israel. And even if they weren't, the Iranian aircraft don't have the range to make it there.

I do think Israel has made some significant mistakes in this campaign (mainly that they should have realized early on that time was not on their side and they had to go in much harder and faster). But if you think the Syrian and/or Iranian Air Forces are any challenge to the IDF, then you have been reading too many novels.
 
One US base in Germany can have more than 40,000 soldier in it. The 40,000 IDF are spread out along several miles of the Israeli/Lebonese border. Israel would see an air or ground attack coming pretty quickly. However all you need is an Iranian Nuke driven in the area covertly, now that could cause some problems.
 
All of the nightmare scenarios have been around for years. NBC weapons aren't THAT hard to come by. What has kept anyone from trying it with Israel is the simple facts that 1) everyone that has started a standup fight with Israel has had their shemaghs handed to them, and 2) Israel has made no secret of the fact that if attacked with NBC weapons, the attacker and any entity (individual, group, nation-state) that supports the attack will die. Israel has the means to wipe any likely enemy or combination of enemies off the face of the planet and the will to use said means. "Never again" is a motto that has been allowed to get rusty during the "peace via appeasement" era. It looks to be getting polished a bit these days.
 
What country is going to let the Iranian Air Force fly over there country to get to Israel? :eek: So that means they have to take the long way around to a warm welcome by the Israeli Air Force.

As for the Syrians....

The 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon resulted in many dogfights between Syrian and Israeli jet fighters. In the end, the Syrians lost over 80 planes and had a number of SAM batteries knocked out, while the Israelis lost no planes.
Sometime later, the Syrian Defense Minister was shopping for weapons in Moscow. His host, the Soviet Defense Minister, was embarrassed about the scorecard from Lebanon. He told his Syrian guest, "Take anything you want - our best tanks, rifles, or surface-to-air missiles." "No, no - you don't understand!" the Syrian replied. "Last time you gave us surface-to-air missiles. This time we need surface-to-*jet* missiles!"
 
yeah right. thats why 12 IDF troops died while converging to prepare for an incursion to lebanon.

but of course, a bio-weapon or nuclear attack would dictate a rung higher response also from israel.
 
IDF is already stepping up operations. Just saw that they have 600,000 reservists ready to go. I don't think even a substantial successful air-raid by Syria would throw the balance. You never know, Israel might even welcome such an attempted attack, then Syria could get their butts kicked too, and we can get passed all this pussy-footing around because of 'world opinion'. Things may get hotter anyway - Israel is reporting Iranian Guards in the mix with the terrorists. Lets get that over with too.
 
yeah right. thats why 12 IDF troops died while converging to prepare for an incursion to lebanon.
Apparently you don't understand the vast differences between ground combat against an insurgency that has prepared many tunnels and fighting positions over the past decade versus aerial combat. In case you hadn't noticed, counter-insurgency is a dangerous business.

First, there's this new-fangled technology called radar that you might want to investigate.

Second, Iran's air force primarly consists of F4 Phantoms and F14 Tomcats from the Shah's rein (that's more than 20 years ago). Iran has been embargoed on spare parts, so they've had a very hard time keeping them airworthy. The Iran air force wasn't known for its prowess before the falling out with the US or during the Iran-Iraq war. Why is it that you think they are suddenly more capable?

Third, Iran's air force doesn't have the range to reach Israel. In fact, Israel's air force would have a hard time reaching Iran, and they've got a much more modern air force AND they have air refueling capability (which Iran doesn't have).

Fourth, as previously stated, Syria lost 80+ aircraft to 0 Israeli losses in the previous war. What makes you think they'll do better this time?

Fifth, how, exactly, are they going to a) evade the US military forces in the Persian Gulf, b) evade the Saudi forces (who have US-trained and staffed AWACS planes airborne 24x7), c) evade the US and Brit-trained Jordanian forces and, finally, d) evade the Israeli forces? I can understand one of those agencies screwing up. But all four? That is rather unlikely, don't you agree?

Sixth, the Israelis spent more than a year planning and training for the raid on Iraq's Osirak reactor. That was at the extreme range of the Israeli aircraft. The distance from Iran to Israel is much greater. The ground forces to be attacked are much more dispersed and harder to see from the air than the Osirak reactor. And the planning period available to Iran has been far less. And yet you assert that Iran is a credible air threat? Based on what evidence?

As I posted previously, has Israel made mistakes in the current war? Yes, no doubt. I suspect that most of the mistakes have been caused by poor decision making by the untested Prime Minister, rather than the IDF, but I have no proof for that. However, your assertion that their forces are at terrible risk from air attack as they gather at the border is, quite simply, complete and utter rubbish.

I'm not trying to say that the IDF are supermen. They aren't. Frankly, I doubt they are any better than the US armed forces. But I await any evidence from you that they are vulnerable to air attack -- you have not presented a single reasoned argument. "Yeah, right" is not exactly a convincing argument.
 
I would think that after Israel stomps all over all those in their way George W should start interviews with some of the IDF high command . He should get one of them to take charge in Iraq and not report back until it was all over . Judging by their performance in Lebanon that should be 2 maybe 3 weeks .
 
It seems that every CNN broadcast in Israel has SPA in the background... the pleasant sound of 155mm SPA in the background is SWEET!

Did we even USE ARTY in Iraq?

Fighting a war where your airpower replaced your arty is expensive and slow.

I would love to see a few batteries of 150, 155mm SPA walk up and down the hillside in preperation for a ground attack.

THATS HOW YOU WIN A WAR. YOU KILL PEOPLE AND BREAK THINGS. ARTY DOES BOTH VERY EFFECIENTLY.
 
The danger Israel faces isn't from Syrian air. The danger stems from its own elected leadership.
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/9116.htm
Analysis: Government and IDF racked by unprecedented leadership crisis
By Jonathan Ariel August 9, 2006

Relations between the country's political and military leadership are at the lowest point in the country's history, on the verge of a crisis. In addition, there is a growing lack of confidence between Chief of Staff Dan Halutz, the first CoS to hail from the air force, and many of his general staff colleagues from the ground forces, who say he and his "blue clique" [blue being the color of the air force uniform-ed] do not fully appreciate the nature of ground warfare.

According to informed sources, there is an almost total breakdown in trust and confidence between the General Staff and the PM's office. They have described the situation as "even worse than the crises that followed Ben Gurion's decision to disband the Palmach, and Golda Meir and Moshe Dayan's cynical decision to place all the blame for the Yom Kippur fiasco on the IDF's shoulders.

Senior IDF officers have been saying that the PM bears sole responsibility for the current unfavorable military situation, with Hezbollah still holding out after almost a month of fighting.



This plan was supposed to have begun with a surprise air onslaught against the Hezbollah high command in Beirut, before they would have had time to relocate to their underground bunkers. This was to have been followed immediately by large scale airborne and seaborne landing operations, in order to get several divisions on the Litani River line, enabling them to outflank Hezbollah's "Maginot line" in southern Lebanon.

According to these officers, Olmert was presented with an assiduously prepared and detailed operational plan for the defeat and destruction of Hezbollah within 10-14 days, which the IDF has been formulating for the past 2-3 years.

This plan was supposed to have begun with a surprise air onslaught against the Hezbollah high command in Beirut, before they would have had time to relocate to their underground bunkers. This was to have been followed immediately by large scale airborne and seaborne landing operations, in order to get several divisions on the Litani River line, enabling them to outflank Hezbollah's "Maginot line" in southern Lebanon. This would have surprised Hezbollah, which would have had to come out of its fortifications and confront the IDF in the open, in order to avoid being isolated, hunted down and eventually starved into a humiliating submission.

This was exactly what the IDF senior command wanted, as Israeli military doctrine, based on the Wehrmacht's blitzkrieg doctrine, has traditionally been one of rapid mobile warfare, designed to surprise and outflank an enemy.

According to senior military sources, who have been extensively quoted in both the Hebrew media and online publications with close ties to the country's defense establishment, Olmert nixed the second half of the plan, and authorized only air strikes on southern Lebanon, not initially on Beirut.

Although the Premier has yet to admit his decision, let alone provide a satisfactory explanation, it seems that he hoped futilely for a limited war. A prominent wheeler-dealer attorney-negotiator prior to entering politics, he may have thought that he could succeed by the military option of filing a lawsuit as a negotiating ploy, very useful when you represent the rich and powerful, as he always had. Another motive may have been his desire to limit the economic damage by projecting a limited rather than total war to the international financial powers that be.

Whatever his reasons, the bottom line, according to these military sources, is that he castrated the campaign during the crucial first days. The decision to not bomb Beirut immediately enabled Nasrallah to escape, first to his bunker, subsequently to the Iranian embassy in Beirut.

The decision to cancel the landings on the Litani River and authorize a very limited call up of reserves forced the ground forces to fight under very adverse conditions. Instead of outflanking a heavily fortified area with overwhelming forcers, they had to attack from the direction most expected, with insufficient forces. The result, high casualties and modest achievements.

This is the background of yesterday's surprise effective dismissal of OC northern Command Maj. General Udi Adam. According to various media sources, Olmert was incensed at Adam's remarks that he had not been allowed to fight the war that had been planned. Adam allegedly made these remarks in response to criticism against his running of the war, and the results so far achieved.

Olmert's responsibility for inaction goes much further. The US administration had given Israel the green light to attack Syria. A senior military source has confirmed to Israel Insider that Israel did indeed receive a green light from Washington in this regard, but Olmert nixed it.

The scenario was that Syria, no military match for Israel, would face a rapid defeat, forcing it to run to Iran, with which it has a defense pact, to come to aid.

Iran, which would be significantly contained by the defeat of its sole ally in the region, would have found itself maneuvered between a rock and a hard place. If it chose to honor its commitment to Syria, it would face a war with Israel and the US, both with military capabilities far superior to Iran's. If Teheran opted to default on its commitment to Damascus, it would be construed by the entire region, including the restless Iranian population, as a conspicuous show of weakness by the regime. Fascist regimes such as that of the ayatollahs cannot easily afford to show that kind of weakness.

As previously mentioned, Iran's military capabilities are no match for Israel's. Bottom line, all Iran could do is to launch missiles at and hit Israel's cities, and try and carry out terror attacks. If there is one thing history has shown, it is that such methods do not win wars. Israel would undoubtedly suffer both civilian casualties and economic damage, but these would not be that much more than what we are already experiencing. We have already irreversibly lost an entire tourist season. Any Iranian and Syrian missile offensives would be relatively short, as they are further form Israel, and therefore would have to be carried out by longer range missiles. These, by their very nature are much bigger and more complex weapons than Katyushas. They cannot be hidden underground, and require longer launch preparations, increasing their vulnerability to air operations. In addition it is precisely for such kinds of missiles that the Arrow system was developed.

The end result would be some additional economic damage, and probably around 500 civilian casualties. It may sound cold blooded, but Israel can afford such casualties, which would be less than those sustained in previous wars (for the record, in 1948 Israel lost 6,000, 1% of the entire population, and in 1967 and 1973 we lost respectively 1,000 and 3,000 casualties).

The gains, however, would be significant. The Iranian nuclear threat, the most dangerous existential threat Israel has faced since 1948, would be eliminated. It would also change the momentum, which over the past two decades as been with the ayatollahs. This could also have a major impact on the PA, hastening the demise of the Islamist Hamas administration.

Instead, according to military sources, Israel finds itself getting bogged down by a manifestly inferior enemy, due to the limitations placed on the IDF by the political leadership. This has been construed by the enemy as a clear sign that Israel is in the hands of a leadership not up to the task, lacking the required experience, guts and willpower. In the Middle East this is an invitation to court disaster, as witness by Iran's and Syria's increased boldness in significantly upping the ante of their involvement in the war.

Some senior officers have been mentioning the C-word in private conversations. They have been saying that a coup d'etat might be the only way to prevent an outcome in Lebanon that could embolden the Arab world to join forces with Syria and Iran in an all out assault on Israel, given the fact that such a development would be spurred entirely by the Arab and Moslem world's perception of Israel's leadership as weak, craven and vacillating, and therefore ripe for intimidation.

Seeing the once invincible IDF being stalemated by Hezbollah's 3,000 troops is a sure way to radiate an aura of weakness that in the Middle East could precipitate attacks by sharks smelling blood.
 
I find an interesting parallel between our unwillingness to commit fully to Afghanistan and Iraq. When will the West learn that when you fight, you fight. These semi-half hearted efforts against dedicated foes are worse that useless as they convince the foe that you are so casualty aversive that you can be bloodied a touch and then quit. Thus, another enemy push later.

Interestingly, Tony Snow said that Reagan, Clinton and Bush I were basically wussy-boys. However, his guy, under the spell of Rummy, acted the same way.

Unless, we get politicians who understand war fighting, it will be the same half-hearted crap.
 
Did we even USE ARTY in Iraq?

Oh heck yes!

Before we took Baghdad, the whole frickin' night sky was glowing with base-burn DPICM. The taking of Baghdad involved the first regimental massed fires (11th Marines) since Korea.

There are still 105 and 155 howitzer batteries in Iraq, along with all the cute li'l mortars. Back during the initial invasion, the Corps also had the support of some Army MLRS, nicknamed the "Grid Square Removal System".

So yes, arty played a big role early on in Iraq, especially when sandstorms and other rough weather made aerial bombing difficult. Was also useful in situations where sustained bombardment was needed. It plays less of a role today, but is still present.

"Artillery conquers, infantry occupies"

-MV
 
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