Israel Arms (IMI??) 1911, M2000, M577 etc.

B

brianidaho

New member
I've seen posts on the IMI pistols, and someone had forwarded me a link to: http://www.israelarms.com/indexmsie.html

They have a line of 1911's with MSRP's of less than $500. They have a compact (looks to be about commander size) in stainless on their web site that looks appealing. Here are the features they list:

M-777 Compact 0.45 ACP
Stainless Steel Complete Frame & Slide
Stainless Steel Frame & 4140 Steel Blue Slide
SPECIFICATIONS
Barrel Length - 4.25”
Overall Length - 6”>
Height - 5.25”
Capacity - 7+1 Rnd.
Weight unloaded - 36 oz.

Suggested Retail-
$477.95-$499.95
Beveled feed ramp barrel
Beavertail grip safety
Beveled magazine well
Extended slide stop, Safety & magazine release
Fixed Sights
Combat Style Hammer
Light Weight Steel Trigger


Their web site isn't too informative, it looks as if they are a importer and not the manufacturer. I don't see anything that ties them to IMI. Can anyone tell me anything about them. Who manufactureres the guns (and where)? Experience with the company or their line of guns? Going rate on them? Anything of value :)

I'd like to get my hands on a inexpensive, decently made 1911, one not made in a communist country. These might fit the bill.

Thanks in advance.

Brian


------------------
I will choose a path thats clear-I will choose freewill-Neal Pert

I swear-by my life and my love of it-that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine-Ayn Rand
 
I'll start off with the disclaimer that I have not fired one of these, but I have fondled one of the IAI 1911s at my local gunshop. It was priced at $389, and the quality sort of reflected that. I'm not knocking the pistol, but there were a lot of machining marks, sharp edges and the blued finish didn't look too durable. I also didn't like the "feel" of the extended slide stop. It might just be that I'm not used to one on a 1911, but it looked like it would be too easy to snag on something, and I'm not sure about holster fit.

However, I have to say that I liked it overall, especially for the price. It looked like a decent 1911 with some popular modifications. I liked it more than the Charles Daly that it was sitting next to, but IMHO a Springfield or a Kimber would be better if it is going to be a first 1911.
 
Brian, I think I sent that link to you previously. I have not been able to get my hands on one but have read some stuff on them. Some of the things I heard was that it was much better quality than Norinco or Charles Daly. I just can't find a dealer. I really like the looks of them. One of the things I read was that it was made by the same company that makes the Uzi's. The main distributer for them is in Texas from what I've learned. If what I heard is true, they'd make a fine defensive gun or a starter for building up into full blown custom.

I'm getting a Kimber because I can't afford a Wilson/Baer/RR, don't want a Springfield or Colt, and couldn't find a IAI around here.

I e-mailed them about where to find a distributer that they listed as being here in Oklahoma and they e-mailed back wanting my complete address. Since then, I haven't heard anything.

They do look good for the money don't they?

------------------
"Charlton Heston is my President"

Danny45
NRA, NAHC, Buckmasters

[This message has been edited by Danny45 (edited October 08, 2000).]
 
This is GBW's husband. I called the company in TX and spoke to a guy who had a heavy accent. If I had to guess, I'd say middleastern. Anyway, he gave me a list of distibutor's. I called one and they hadn't recieved any yet. I was looking for a commander without the series 80 garbage, but I ended up buying a colt 1991A1 commander anyway. I also would like to hear about these guns, especially the commander. I'd like to know if they are worth buying as a base gun for upgrade. Terry
 
I have shot one of the IAI 5" models extensively. A friend bought it 2 or 3 years ago. It's the two tone model with beavertail, extended safety and slide stop, etc. The gun is roughly finished and the contols are coarse through their range of motion. Racking the slide sounds like the piece is full of ground clamshells. It has not "smoothed out" significantly over 3-4000 rounds. That said, it has never malfunctioned, even with HP's or cheap, horrible reloads. It is also extremely accurate. If the one I'm familiar with is a representative example, I'd say the IMI's are crude and ugly, but eminently functional and accurate well beyond expectation. If cosmetics and "feel" are important, I'd say save a little more and get a Kimber/Springfield/Colt. But if you're on a budget and you want a 1911 that works, get the IMI.
vanfunk

------------------
semper ubi sub ubi
 
This subject came up when I was in a BS session with several of my gunsmith buddies (I am also a gunsmith). We came to two conclusions.

#1 - If you just want a milspec type weapon, the IMI, Norinco (tho it's metal has been known to be brittle) or the Charles Daly (I have seen one with battered slide lock hole, maybe early metal wasn't hardened properly) would probably fill the bill.

#2 - If you are going to purchase a 1911 for the base for a competition type pistol, consider starting with a Springfield Trophy Match (starts at about $1000) or something of equal quality if you are going to get serious about competition.

Most people go in and buy a low cost 1911, like the IMI, and then eventually want to 'improve' fit and function with several upgrades. Say you spent $400 on the 'low cost' pistol. To upgrade it properly, you will spend AT LEAST another $400 in parts and labor for the upgrade. So you now have at least $800 in a pistol that still won't probably shoot any better than the Springfield Trophy Match or one of it's equivalents. So, either save your money until you can afford a better model, or don't complain too much when that low cost pistol upgrade ends up costing $700 or more and still isn't any better than the SATM pistol. I build 1911s, but most of mine are built for competitors and START at about $2500. Other friends of mine, start with a milspec Springfield, and then upgrade it to about the Trophy Match quality. And you will usually spend $450 - $700 for that upgrade. And they admit, most of their customers are happy, but he also said that they would have also been happy with the Trophy Match up front. Just our two cents worth.

[This message has been edited by Wallew (edited October 08, 2000).]
 
I like what I see of the features of these guns now, based on their web site and comments here, but I don't get a good feeling about the company. If they are an importer, and post no info about the manufacturer, I'm concerned about their origin and support. Are they newcommers to firearms manufacturing and do they have their act together.

I'm pretty new to the handgunning game and am currently trying to find out what I really like. My plan is to get a entry level compact 1911 and if I decide that is the type of gun I want, sell it and upgrade to a Springfield or Kimber. I don't happen to have the $1000 in my pocket to drop on a Trophy Match right now. I currently own a Witness, and have ordered another, I think these are great CZ-styled guns for less than $300 in my area. I'd like to find a 1911 of comparable quality in the same general price range, and get some experience with one.

I tried to call IAI Saturday and didn't get an answer. I'll try again during the week and post what I learn.

Thanks for the posts.

Bri

[This message has been edited by brianidaho (edited October 08, 2000).]
 
Brian, I agree that there should be some concern about the reliability of the COMPANY here. The fact that they wanted my address in an e-mail and then I never heard anything again tells me there is a problem. Also, the fact I can't find any of the guns anyplace. I too had a Witness in .45 and it's a very sound firearm. If you like the Witness, you'll love a 1911.

------------------
"Charlton Heston is my President"

Danny45
NRA, NAHC, Buckmasters
 
Originally IAI imported the 1911 made in Israel. These had a square trigger gaurd.
They had some import problems and are now assembling a 1911 made from cast parts supplied by Essex. These slides and frames have the traditional rounded trigger guard.
This info was gleaned at the last SHOT show.
The company IAI has no affiliation that I know of with the Israeli company IMI . The owners of IAI are Israeli's

------------------
www.customholsters.com
M/D ENTERPRISES Custom Concealment Holsters
Gunleather so nice it's almost a crime to conceal it
mde@customholsters.com
100% satisfaction or I buy it back!

"Holsters" the only real cure for mad cow disease
 
I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression. If you are just starting out, I agree that you should go low end and then consider upgrading at a later time if this is where you want to go. By no means did I mean to suggest your first 1911 should cost you $1000. I was just trying to make you aware of where you will probably end up if you pursue this particular pistol for any length of time. FEG makes a great CZ copy for about $300. After that, consider a used 1911. You might be able to get better quality for the same amount of money. At local gunshows, I regularly see used 1911's in the $350 - $500 range all the time. Sorry for the confusion.
 
Wallew:

I think FEG of Hungary manufactures Browning High Power clones, not CZ clones. FEG also makes PPK-E for Walther as well as an indigenous design double-action pistols that is a combination of High Power and S&W.

Tanfoglio of Italy, I believe, is the best known clone manufacturer of CZ pistols. These clones are marketed as "Witness" pistols by EAA in the US.

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
 
Mark THG,

"The company IAI has no affiliation that I know of with the Israeli company IMI . The owners of IAI are Israeli's."

Thanks for confirming what I've been saying. The 1911s marketed by IAI aren't made by IMI. As for their business practices, I sent several emails and wrote a letter inquiring about a fanny pack they had for sale. I never once got an answer. I don't think this speaks well for customer support.

------------------
"Get yourself a Pistolet Makarova and lose that pricey western gadget."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skorzeny:
Wallew:

I think FEG of Hungary manufactures Browning High Power clones, not CZ clones. FEG also makes PPK-E for Walther as well as an indigenous design double-action pistols that is a combination of High Power and S&W.

Tanfoglio of Italy, I believe, is the best known clone manufacturer of CZ pistols. These clones are marketed as "Witness" pistols by EAA in the US.

Skorzeny
[/quote]

I hate to say this, but all the above, as well as the Sphinx, made in Switzerland are copies (one type or the other) of the High Power. They all also make clones of other pistols as well some of their own or other designs. I realize that Brianidaho was contemplating 1911 designs, but the one thing he was also looking for was 'a low cost .45'. I realize that the FEG IS NOT a 1911, but just tried to throw out some other possibilities.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I hate to say this, but all the above, as well as the Sphinx, made in Switzerland are copies (one type or the other) of the High Power. [/quote]

In what sense are the CZ-75 and its derivatives "copies" of the Hi-Power?
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> The HP has its slide rails outside the frame; the CZ has its slide rails inside the frame.
<LI> The HP has its trigger linkage in the slide; the CZ has its trigger linkage in the frame.
<LI> The HP is a single action pistol; the CZ has a double action trigger.
<LI> The HP has a magazine safety; the CZ doesn't.
</UL>

Clearly, the designers at CZ used some ideas from the Hi-Power, but I don't think it's accurate to call their creation a "copy".



[This message has been edited by Matt VDW (edited October 11, 2000).]
 
If it makes it semantically correct, all those firms STARTED with J. Browning design and then 'improved' it. Does that make them 'original designs' by that manufacturer. I don't think so. With that in mind, would you say that the improvements made to the original J. Browning design of the 1911, then 1911A1 makes them not J. Browning designs? I don't. I also happen to think that the differences are minor. Do those pistols we discussed operate mainly the way J. Browning designed his High Power to operate? That's my designation of a clone. And can you lay them all on the table and see that their designs are all interrelated? I can, but that's just my two cents worth.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Do those pistols we discussed operate mainly the way J. Browning designed his High Power to operate? That's my designation of a clone.[/quote]

Yes, they're all locked-breach, recoil operated pistols with tilting barrels, but then so was the M1911. Does that make the Hi-Power a "clone" of the M1911? Most people wouldn't think so.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And can you lay them all on the table and see that their designs are all interrelated?[/quote]

Yes, you can. I can also look at a picture of my family and see that my father and I are related, but that doesn't make me his "clone". ;)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>With that in mind, would you say that the improvements made to the original J. Browning design of the 1911, then 1911A1 makes them not J. Browning designs? I don't. I also happen to think that the differences are minor[/quote]

That's right -- the differences between the 1911 and the 1911A1 are minor. Ninety percent of the parts will interchange between the two. Is that true of the HP and the CZ75? No; none of the parts will interchange between those pistols.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If it makes it semantically correct, all those firms STARTED with J. Browning design and then 'improved' it. [/quote]

Now you're cookin'. :)

Semantics is not just an excuse to pick nits. It's what makes language meaningful. If Brianidaho had gone looking for a "CZ copy" made by FEG, he would have had a hard time and been told that there's no such thing.

That's my $0.02.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top