Is Value Relative?

F

Frenchy

New member
I’ve been giving this thought for quit some time now, and wanted to run this by you.
As I study the Smith & Wesson revolver by using my “Standard Catalog”, reading posts from experienced collectors, and looking at the various offerings on auction and sales boards, I’m wondering if value (price?) is relative and subjective.
Let me present a scenario!
Lets say you go into Joe Dealers gun shop. In his display case is a Model 28-2 and a Model 686-5, both “New In Box”. Which one would you buy if both were priced at $475.00.
The Standard Catalog places the value of the 28 in this condition at $375.00, and the average going price of the 686 (at least in my area) at $475.00, give or take.
The general consensus seems to be that overall quality of Smiths made 20 years ago or more, is better than what we see today, so why wouldn’t you plunk down your hard earned money on the 28.
Let’s look at some of the older "NIB" revolvers being offered on the auction boards today and what we consider outlandish prices being placed on them.

Smith & Wesson mod 581 4" nickel nib - $570.00

Smith & Wesson m 36-1 3" 38sp nib - $565.00

Smith & Wesson M28-2 4" Highway Patrolman. Nib - $610.00

Smith & Wesson m10-7 4". Nib - $540.00

Smith & Wesson m17-4 22lr 6". Nib - $695.00

Smith & Wesson m15-3 38 Combat Masterpiece. Nib - $715.00

In case you don’t know, the seller is “kidbillions” on Gun Broker.
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Now these are "New" production guns of today.

S & W 629 Mountain Gun, 44 mag, Mountain Gun Factory New 0 $566.00

Smith & Wesson Performance Center 629 Light Hunter 44 mag Factory New 0 $967.00

S & W PerfCenter 15-9 ColorCase 38 Hand Ejector Mil/Poli Factory New 0 $822.00

S & W Performance Center Heritage Series M17 Factory New 0 $775.00

Smith & Wesson Model 36 Gold Revolver 38Sp Factory New 0 $412.00

These are presented on Auction Arms by “Gunfinder.net”. They advertise at 10% over cost.
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I e-mailed kidbillions (Steve Kramer) and ask him about his prices. I received a very cordial response saying that none of his prices were “written in stone” and that he would look at any offer.

With that being said, would you consider let’s say, an original 36-1 vs. a 36 “Gold” if prices were equal? Would you consider a 17-4 vs. a Heritage 17 if prices were the same?
Is Something that isn't made any more, worth as much as something made today if the price is the same?

I realize I’m comparing Apples to Oranges to some extent, but I think you see what I’m getting at here.

I would really like your opinions here.

Steve
 
Regarding the S&W model 28-2 vs. the S&W 686-5

Greetings Frenchy,

I see this one as a "toss up"; dependent on which
model you prefer. I have owned many, excellent
Smith model 28-2's; but currently own and shoot
the 6" barrel model 686-5. Both are very fine guns,
and if both were priced at $475.00 as you say; then
that would definitely be a very hard decision? Most
likely, I would opt for the 28-2; although a bit over
priced, this model is my all-time favorite .357 magnum
revolver. However, the 686 does have one feature
that I truly like; and that is the frame mounted firing
pin, which is something I think Smith & Wesson should
have done year's ago. But, that's just my opinion, and
I see both weapons in question serving shooters very
well everyday!:cool: :D :)

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
 
I suspect that many (or most) of the people here would prefer one of the older P&R revolvers. Given a choice between a new 657 and a NIB P&R 57, I'd pick the 57 myself. I'd probably even be willing to pay more for it than an equivelient 657.
 
I would opt for the 28-2; although a bit over priced
Click to expand...

I would imagine you are baseing this on Fair Market Value, Ala Dan!

Let's look at "Fair Market Value"! The way I understand it, FMV is determined by sampling a cross-section of sales for a given gun in a given condition nationwide. So, if "X" pistol sold for $200 in a Kentucky gun shop, and the same one sold for $400 at a California gun shop, the average would be $300, or FMV. Now I realize that this is overly simplified because you don't have a true barometer with only two sales.
Now let's look at perceived value. Let's take that 581 4" nickel nib @ $570.00. What would be the production cost for this pistol today if the same attention to detail and workmanship were involved. Square butt, flawless nickel finish, forged color-cased hammer & trigger, etc. Does the $570 asking price look too out of line now? Granted it didn't cost that much to produce it years ago but, a new gun is a new gun.
Another point to consider. All of the revolvers listed by kidbillions arn't made anymore. In essence, you have NIB "Limited Additions".
 
I have always felt that "What is this gun worth?" is a question that can only be answered by one person: The person who wants it the most. I had a cheap .32 revolver years ago. I couldn't have gotten $40 for it no matter how hard I tried. But when it was stolen I felt a lot more than $40 worth of emotional pain. It was the only gun that had been left to me by my late grandfather. Now, I don't have any of his guns. I'd pay $500 to have it back. Does that make it worth $500? Only to me.

I have a nice Colt SAA. I don't really feel the need for another one. So if I saw one for sale at $800 I would pass even though that's a great price. At $600 I would buy it because I figure I can turn a quick couple of bills on it. If I didn't have one, and wanted one, I might pay $1200+. So what's such a gun really worth? Pick a number.

Now, if we talk about something I really want, like a nickeled M58, I would be willing to pay more than I know it is really worth simply because I really want it. I think a M58 in 90-95% is worth around $350. Many folks have chided me saying they are worth more. Not to me. But if I found that shiny M58, I might go $400, or $425 because I really want it. Of course, the seller may really want $500. Note that I am still looking. I saw one at GunsAmerica at $695. I am still looking. I don't want it that badly. Last I looked it was still for sale. Maybe nobody wants it that badly.

In the case of Mr. Kramer's offerings, I think that all of those guns are very overpriced. Someone else may disagree. Someone who sees exactly what they have been seeking may be willing to pay a premium to have it.

When someone asks "Should I trade my gun for XX gun?" my reply is simply "which one would you rather own?" It doesn't matter which one has more monetary value unless you plan to sell it for profit. If it is for your own use, take (or keep) the one you want the most.

Simple test for deciding if the asking price is too high. Imagine a stack of cash in the amount of the asking price on a table before you. Next to it is the gun being offered. You are invited to pick one. Do you mentally take the money or the gun? If you choose the money, don't buy the gun. Bottom line is, which do want more, the cash or the gun?

To answer your question, yes, value in terms of money is completely subjective because it is based on personal considerations. Some people will pay more for a lower-quality gun because it is the model that they prefer. This demand does not make the lower grade gun equal to or superior to a higher grade model, it only means that some individuals place a higher value on it for personal reasons.
 
I agree with most of everything you've said SP. I stayed away from used guns in this exercise only because it complicates the issue.
Weather Mr. Kramer’s prices are unrealistic, becomes subjective. You have to decide in what context you define "over Priced". Is it because it's more than I can afford? Is it because I can get a used version for less money? Is it because I can get a brand new production gun for the same price?
To me it's the idea of having a "new" gun that was produced decades ago, that isn't made anymore, that has the workmanship that was commonplace then, but can only be found in custom houses now. One that I have no intention of selling because of the amount paid for it in the first place.
It is definitely a personal matter.
One thing that does bother me though, is when an individual is chided for laying out a large amount of cash for a gun that many think is over-priced. We love to brag when we nail a good deal. ;)
 
A rant about pricing

I do realize the point of this thread, but I just had to throw out a comment on Kidbillions and dealers like him. I'm mostly a milsurp collector/shooter and have a good handle on what many milsurps are worth on the market today. This guy prices his merchandise at 2 and sometimes 3 times there worth. I assume he is waiting for a newbie to buy them from him. For example, he had an Egyptian Hakim on Gunbroker for almost $900. This gun (a great 8mm semi-auto) can be had for $300-$350 in NRA VG to excellent condition. Likewise he has an 8mm Egyptian contract FN-49 going for $895. If this was a minty Luxembourg
contract in 30/06 it might go for that price but even a mint Egyptian shouldn't cost you more than about $450. I'm not up on my non-milsurp pricing but if his other guns are priced in line with the milsurps than they are out of this world.

I do agree that the value of a gun (or anything else for that matter) is up to the owner. However, pricing like this is slimy in the same way the used car salesman cliche is slimy. Kidbillions is far from being the only dealer like this. I know you have all seen a few. At a recent gunshow in San Francisco, I saw a guy trying to sell one of those $125 Yugo SKSs (with the grenade launcher and sight removed to make it CA legal) for $450. In a dealers attempt to get a sucker to buy his merchandise for outrageous prices he gives a veneer of slimeness to all of shooting sports. We already have a dwindling population of hunting and shooting enthusiasts in this country. To rip a newbie off just because the newbie knows no better is just wrong IMO. You risk turning a new convert to shooting sports into a p-oed guy who goes off to buy a Kayak (or whatever) to spend his time with. At this point we need all the gun enthusiasts we can get!


Sorry about the rant, but guys like Kidbillions just get me.


http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=5587292
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=5576999
 
SP, I'm not sure where you've been looking but I've never seen a M58 priced for $350. If you see one for that price, let me know (especially if it's nickle). :)
 
If I might weigh in on this subject, I would like to say that guns are not the only areas where you see what I think you are refering to.......a mind set which is not entirely logical.

I used to collect antiques. I could buy a very expensive, hand carved, solid walnut, original finish, three piece bedroom suite (for example) for maybe $ 5000.00. Everybody who saw it was impressed. When they asked the price, they were astounded. But these same people would spend the same amount of money on a new, cherry, suite and make payment for three years. Now at the end of five years, the antique was worth $6000.00 and the new cherry was worth $200.00....I could go on but I digress.

Frenchy, I could not agree more. The logic defies me.

I have heard many definitions of what an object is worth. To me the best definition is, what will the same object (same model, brand, condition, whatever) cost elsewhere and *what will I have to do to get it* (i.e. hunt 2 months, drive to L.A., spend untold hours on the telephone). If I can get it for less somewhere else at reasonably the same effort, then this one is over priced. Whether I want it badly enough to pay the going price does not change what it is worth.

This covers the issue of what it's worth to you or me since both of us could get one somewhere else for the same price.

It's a mad. mad, mad world all right.
 
This guy prices his merchandise at 2 and sometimes 3 times there worth.
Click to expand...

AHHH.... But that's the rub my Friend. Define worth!! I to thought kidbillions was some kind of low-life just waiting for some unsuspecting novice to fly into his web. Remember, he has the right to price as he likes, and you have the right not to darken his door. If he is willing to dicker a little (and he is), and he has something I want, than a deal can be consummated. Two adults walking away happy.
 
MD- I don't really see all that many M58s for sale, but most of the ones recently have been priced in the $400-$500 range. They did not seem to be selling like hotcakes. Most are blued and show wear from service use. Of course, a pristine example will have collector value and be much more. I have a blued one in about 80% retired from a PA police agency and I paid $189 for it 15 years ago. I think it is worth $300-$350 now. A 100% gun is likely worth more like $500+. The problem, I think, is that many people disregard condition when pricing guns. They look in the Blue Book and see the top price and that's what they ask regardless of the wear on their gun. They often sell, so what can I say?

As for notifying you of any for sale at $350, send me your E-mail address and I will happily do so. Bear in mind a nickeled one at a reasonable price gors to me.

One last note. I think we are mainly discussing asking prices here. Many dealers will come down and we need to consider actual selling prices. My advice is to bring cash, and lay it on the table when you make your offer. Nothing like the sight of money to encourage negotiations.
 
If you get a M58 for $200.00, and it's not the gun you want, or you just don't like it, you paid too much. (You can still prolly turn it around without taking a loss.)
If you see the gun you want, and you KNOW you want it, then not getting it is just retarded, unless you think you can do better.
The problem is, if you are unsure, and you think you might want to sell it, you're gonna take so much of a loss, you'll never want that model again.
Personally, if I saw a M58 in G/VG condition for $300., I might have to look at it some more.
As for NIB, I don't need the aggravation.
Too hard to find. (Or expensive.)
How bad do I want one?
Not bad enough...
 
Price: the point at which the seller would like the buyer to take the money out of your back pocket and put it in his. And, ...

Value: the point at which you can expect (hope) the same from someone else at a future point in time.

The two are always in a constant state of flux based upon supply and demand.

YMMV
 
Of course value is relative. Something is worth (to you) what you will pay for it, and nothing else. The subjectivity of value is one of the basic tenets of economics.
 
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