Is this a daft idea?

P

Pond James Pond

New member
About a week ago I posted a personal assessment of the two centre-fire semis I have owned just for the heck of it.

One was my old G19 (Gen3), the other my current SP-01 CZ.

I had replaced the Glock with the CZ because of the grip angle of the former and the CZ has not disappointed.

Nonetheless, as I composed my epic post I simply wrote down the impressions and feelings I had about both guns and drew comparisons something became clearer.

One thing that stood out was that no matter how much the grip angle had bothered me the Glock had a lot of qualities, and no matter how solid and pointable the accurate CZ is it also has some pitfalls.

On some level admitting that on keyboard must have caused some change as this last week I have been more open to other models and that is where this post comes in and I'd welcome input on it.

The long and the short of it is I went to see and handle a G26 and it was nice, but later I went out and handled a CZ 2075 Rami. That was a different experience altogether! What a neat, tidy gun.

It is like a British Bull Terrier to the SP-01's Doberman Pinscher. The SP has a real presence and poise, but the squat Rami just whispers "I may look dinky, but I'll 'ave yer leg off in the blink of an eye" Seriously, what a cool gun!

So here is my puzzle.
My SP-01 is really good, and I have been getting to grips with it and improving my modest gun-craft with it, so I don't doubt it is up the any job I have in mind.
It is 99% IPSC/range work, but would be my HD go-to due to capacity and tritiums.

The question is, could the Rami do what the SP-01 does and as well?
Would I be daft to consider ditching the excellent SP-01 in order to get a smaller gun?

You may ask what the Rami brings to the table. On the practical side, its size. Estonian laws require semis to be carried condition 3, but revolvers have no such rules, so I carry a .38 Snub when I feel the need. However, I liked being able to carry the G19 and I'd prefer to have a semi that gives me the option. The SP does not.

Beyond that it is mostly that I really like the gun in itself and generally prefer small and compact to big. I do feel drawn to it.

So thoughts are welcome, but please try to put yourselves in my shoes (such as remembering my carry restrictions) because I have very different considerations due to the laws that govern shooting over here.

Essentially, I want people to help cut through the emotions and excitement of window shopping and help me see what the real Status Quo is and where I should go from here: is this just school-boy new-toy syndrome, or is this a genuine shift in my priorities.

Common sense input on both guns, and how the stack-up to each other would help me to do that.
 
Are JHP rounds legal for you? The RAMI can do just fine in the HD role, but the biggest difference is that many JHP's won't expand properly from the shorter RAMI barrel. That's a moot point if you're limited to FMJ's. Presumably you'd be using the 14-round mags for HD, and carrying with the 10-round mags? I don't see why it wouldn't work - plenty of people keep snubnosed .38's for HD, and the 9mm RAMI is at least as effective.

Before settling on the RAMI, have you tried the P-01/PCR/Compact? I bought my RAMI BD with the intention of carryng it, but eventually settled on the PCR because it's slightly thinner and more comfortable despite being taller and longer than the RAMI. It's comparable in size to the G19.
 
HP's are forbidden here, so yes, FMJs it is to all intents and purposes!

The good news with the Rami is that it does take all 75 mags so any HD duty could be settled with 16r'ders

I haven't handled the Compact, so I don't know how it feels, but the issue is that I am not in the market for a new gun. It is just that the Rami left me with quite an impression and I could imagine myself with it.

Beyond that, I am, on the whole, happy with the SP-01.
 
Mr. Bond,
This time all I can say is, that the brain makes mistakes, but the heart does NOT. So let your heart overrule your brain. Whatever you come up will be just fine. The only gun that will not work is, the one you don't have.-:) So sleep on it.
 
You asked...

If trigger pull length remains an issue for you when shooting CZs, the RAMI is very similar -- so be sure to try one hands-on before you make a commitment. The RAMI BD, which starts from the half-cock notch, may be the best choice.

That said, the RAMI does NOTHING as well as any of the larger CZs, including the compact, alloy-framed models, and unless you need a small weapon for concealed carry, I can't think of a single good reason to go the RAMI route.

(It's only 2 ounces lighter, 3/4 of an inch shorter, and 1/3 of an inch less high than the compact PCR. It's NOT as small as it seems.
 
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To try illustrating what Walt said above, here's a shot of the RAMI BD along with it's slightly bigger brother the P-01. If you have carried the Glock 19 and/or SP-01, you would certainly have no issues with the P-01 or PCR. You've got a tough decision ahead Mr. Pond!

0aefbddda9d80f8ff93173a21c85d9f9.jpg
 
The RAMI BD, which starts from the half-cock notch, may be the best choice.
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Can you clarify what this means? Do you mean that, at rest, the D model hammer is at half-cock? This might be a problem for IPSC ready position requirements. If, however, you mean that the trigger with the decocker is nearer the position of what it would be at half-cock for the others, that is a different story.

Regarding the comment about the Rami not doing as well as other models. The only evidence I have to contradict this logical assertion is that I shot a G26, that I'd never held before, better than my own G19 that I was quite used to by that stage.

My gut says that the size would not be such an issue. It just "feels" like a good choice, but my Logic Algorithms say "You downsize; you crazy!"

Mr. Bond,
This time all I can say is
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Mr Bond?! Who he? Perhaps you're thinking of my jet-setting, taylored, belligerent assassin second cousin. He's a Walther fan-boy: no point asking his opinion on CZ's! ;)

Your comment on following one's heart does ring true with my M.O. in a number of areas. I can often be a creature of impulse rather than impartiality! That is not to say that I always make the right decision, but I have not been flooded with bad ones either!
 
If you downsize you will have more felt recoil that is physics. If you have a way to shoot one befor you buy do it because you just might decide against the increase in felt recoil in short order.
 
If you have a way to shoot one befor you buy do it because you just might decide against the increase in felt recoil in short order.
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I recognise the recoil aspect, but trying one is highly unlikely. There are no range rentals and I don't think anyone I know will have one. In the races, most shoot full-size or compacts.
 
A friend and co-worker has a Rami. I have put a CZ-75 Compact through its paces. Both are excellent pistols IMHO, but if IPSC is in the equation, I think the 75 Compact is more natural to hold and to point.

Note that the Compact comes in two flavors. There's an alloy-frame version with a decocker, and a steel-frame version with a conventional thumb safety. The version I tested was the all-steel model with the thumb safety.
 
Full size is better for competition and home defense.

You could make due with the smaller model, but it's less than ideal.


The compact and p-01 being closed to the size of the 19 might work though.


As far as the half cook thing... On a CZ, the decocker models drop the hammer to the half cook notch. This is by design, so it should not run afoul of the rules, as that is the designed ready position of the mechanism.

It does make the trigger reach a little shorter.

I keep my standard safety model CZs on half cook rather than using the safety.
 
I think you are dealing very well with the totally frustrating laws that won't allow you to just go out a buy the Rami and have your own personal shoot off to decide which one is best. You haven't complained about it once in this thread. I think I should be more appreciative of the system I have here (Minnesota, USA).
 
As Aquila Blanca noted above, CZ compacts come in two forms. The one called the Compact (note the capital C in the model name) is steel framed and has a safety instead of a decocker. The alloy-framed guns have decockers. (The two forms may have recently become three, as CZ has introduced an alloy-framed version of the Compact here in the U.S., and it may also be available in Europe. For those of us who found the Compact, with it's steel frame, a bit heavy, the alloy-framed version is an improvement.)

Unhappily, that alloy-framed (and steel-framed) Compact has virtually the same trigger pull length as your SP-01, so you'll have the same trigger-reach issues you've talked about before. A decocker-equipped model and slimmer grips could make that issue go away. A PCR or P-01 is a better choice in that respect. If you could find it, an SP-01 Tactical, which is your SP-01 with a decocker would solve all of your problems and leave you well equipped for home defense and Production competition.

The RAMI would be an appropriate choice when you need a small gun that you can shoot well. The RAMI can be used for concealed carry and home defense, it's not a gun that will excel in competitive shooting environments. ( I suspect you'll be the only ONLY person shooting a RAMI, if you go that route.)
 
A friend and co-worker has a Rami. I have put a CZ-75 Compact through its paces. Both are excellent pistols IMHO, but if IPSC is in the equation, I think the 75 Compact is more natural to hold and to point.

Note that the Compact comes in two flavors. There's an alloy-frame version with a decocker, and a steel-frame version with a conventional thumb safety. The version I tested was the all-steel model with the thumb safety.
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I will go and have a look at and feel of the Compact, although this whole mess arose due to an emotional reaction to the Rami: just wanting it a great deal, not because I wanted to get rid of the SP-01. So now looking for guns with which I can replace a gun that I don't want to replace would be a clear case of mission creep!!

I am also trying to play the odds too. I am trying to pre-empt any changes in the law. If they ever decide to change the condition 3 law for semis (which they clearly have put in to allay fears of NDs), my suspisicion is that they may only lift it on DA/SA guns.
The question is, will they say that you can carry cocked and locked (use of a safety to avoid a ND) or will they decide it only applies on decockers (relying on trigger pull to avoid an ND which is the existing legal stance for revolvers). So bringing semis in line with revolvers or applying the more politically attractive use of a "safety"! Who knows?!

On a CZ, the decocker models drop the hammer to the half cook notch. This is by design, so it should not run afoul of the rules, as that is the designed ready position of the mechanism.
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Perhaps yes, perhaps no.

IPSC rules say:

8.1.2.5
If a handgun has a decocking lever, that alone must be used to decock the handgun, without touching the trigger. If a handgun does not have a decocking lever, the hammer must be safely and manually lowered all the way forward (i.e. not just to a “half-cock notch” or to another similar intermediary position).
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Based on that I think you are right as the half-cocked condition seems to be aimed specifically at safety models. But in the production division appnedix section paragraph 15 it says:

Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked (see Rule 8.1.2.5), at the Start Signal.
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That appears to contradict the other paragraph I quoted, but given that this is for Production division I have to take that as gospel. I have to say it really isn't that clear.

Both CZ75 compacts (the regular and the D) are listed as approved handguns. ON the one hand they want fully decocked, and decocking should only be done with a decocker if it is part of the gun yet on the other hand, those decocker guns that are known to only bring the hammer back to half-cocked have been approved! Confused! (point for another thread I think)

I think you are dealing very well with the totally frustrating laws that won't allow you to just go out a buy the Rami and have your own personal shoot off to decide which one is best. You haven't complained about it once in this thread. I think I should be more appreciative of the system I have here (Minnesota, USA).
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Thanks!
Yes, indeed, some aspects make the process more complicated than it need be, but what can you do? You just have to go with the flow and make do. To be fair, though, the laws here are infinitely more accommodating than some I have experienced before, so I'm not "looking the horse in the mouth"!

( I suspect you'll be the only ONLY person shooting a RAMI, if you go that route.)
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You know, that alone makes me want to get it!! :D
(some say I like to make a statement... ;))
 
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It's the beaver-tail (and the extra inch of slide).

As I sew up own abdomen with used clothesline stitches, I can confirm that it is the considerable beaver-tail on the SP-01 that is painful with IWB carry.

I tried it again just now for a short dog walk and the beaver-tail, and the longer slide (to a lesser degree) that caused the discomfort.

Now looking at the photo that Cyanide kindly posted, it certainly looks like the Rami with extended mag is about the same height as the standard Compact from mag base to slide top. So both of those are about 1cm shorter than the SP-01.

The Compact is about 1.5cm shorter than the SP-01 along the slide and that is about the amount of slide that the SP-01 pokes out from the IWB holster.

Finally, once over-laid so that the grip back straps are aligned along with the top-strap and slide my Astra snub is about the same as the Rami is likely to be (with the 14rd mag), perhaps even the size of the Compact, which is interesting to say the least!!
 
As I sew up own abdomen with used clothesline stitches, I can confirm that it is the considerable beaver-tail on the SP-01 that is painful with IWB carry.
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That's not a GUN issue as much as a HOLSTER issue.

But most folks (not all, by any means) use a 3-4 o'clock carry -- if right-handed (between your front and rear pockets.) Carry in the abdomen (belly carry) can be painful and often isn't practical with a large gun. If that's where you had yours, that was part of the problem. Hard to sit down comfortably, that way, too. Or drive.

Your holster is the culprit... For carry and how the gun fits you, the holster should have a layer of material that protects your body from that part of the gun. (Unhappily, You don't learn to look for that sort of feature on a holster until you actually start using it.)

This is one below is only one type and there are other that are less massive, but still put protective (thick) material between the gun's beavertail and hammer and the person...

1_accessories_iwb_holsters_for_sig_p229_87509_zps74d9b7dc.jpg
 
That's not a GUN issue as much as a HOLSTER issue.
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You are no doubt right. In fact, I admitted as much in another, recent OP because I do concede that the holster is designed for a G19. And indeed, appendix carry is not ideal.

However, I have tried it at 3-4 and 5 o'clock and it print so much it may as well be vacuum packed.

Whatever I could do better, I am pretty much convinced that the SP-01 is not a gun I would ever feel comfortable/confident carrying. That is not necessarily, in itself, a reason to sell it.
 
Whilst I never stopped liking the SP-01, the Rami has certainly caught my attention. I plan to return once more to the shop, this time comparing with the Compact, but I will say this: The one Level 1 competition I did at the weekend served me very well in pointing out how good the SP-01 is.

Whatever my views of the Rami, which are by no means settled, I do feel I owe it to the SP to give it some time.

I think I need to "sleep on it" a bit.... Do some more races with it, shoot some more range targets and get to grips with what it can do and what I can do with it.

I will investigate other holsters in the meantime, hence my thread about the Simply Rugged Cumberland. Perhaps this can make SP-01 carry possible!
 
Today I handled a CZ75 Compact, Compact D, P-01 and Compact Shadowline.

Hat's off to all those who said it was a nice pistol. It truly is. Of the lot, I liked the weight of standard Compact (all-steel, safety model).

The Compact D and P-01 where not different in any discernible way apart from the roll-marked model name. My guess is they are the same gun unless someone knows otherwise.

The decocker was a nice feature, but I feel like perhaps the trigger did not feel like the standard version. It is hard to describe. The safety model's trigger felt nicer. None were as nice as the Shadowline's. It has had smoothed parts from the factory and it shows. The trigger was like an oiled ice-cube. Very smooth! And the break was very crisp. Fabulous!! But never worth an extra €300 over the standard.

On all models the mag release was noticeably easier to press than my SP-01. I will say that the standard's regular plastic grips and white dot sights were a disappointment having been spoilt by the Sp-01's rubber grips and night-sights. Still, it felt great in the hand. I still plan to give the SP-01 a chance, but if I ever have a doubt, I'm going for the CZ Compact standard in a flash.

I also held a CZ 97B. That was huge. Looking down the safety-checked barrel I kept expecting to hear a horn and have a freight train trundle out. That is a big hole! The walls of the barrel were really thin compared to the 9mm, though. I know the .45 is a low pressure round, but I'd still like more meat on the barrel. The slide also had a threaded shim of some kind on the front around the muzzle. Overall, though I was underwhelmed. The grips felt really cheap and ill-fitting, even compared to the crappy Compact ones, and the finish was not so nice. The slide to frame joins were not as neat and the coating was not the thick poly-coat of the 75s. The trigger felt pretty good, but apart from that I was not taken at all.

SO let's see how the SP-01 gets on. Simply Rugged holster was ordered, but even if I trade in the big CZ, the Compact will still fit it. That is one great thing about the CZ75 line-up. Every model shows its heritage!
 
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