Defensive ammo is so expensive that many of my carry guns are loaded with Winchester JHP from Wally world. Is this sufficient or is it worth the extra money for the more expensive stuff? In my .45's I don't sweat it, but in my 9mm's I feel JHP is needed. I want it to do the job if ever needed.
Is there a huge difference between hollowpoints?
- Thread starter fivepaknh
- Start date
flightline
New member
Apparently the Winchester PDX1 in .40 S&W is the FBI service load; I'm not sure that more expensive stuff is much; if any, better.
I personally think the Winchester White Box 115 grain and 147 grain JHP Personal Protection are fine for defense. They are an older design and technology, I believe they are the same as the Silver-Tip. I could be wrong about that point, but nevertheless they are good defense cartridges.
I have a few hundred of the 115 grain 9mm and the 230 grain .45 ACP as surplus for a rainy day.
I have a few hundred of the 115 grain 9mm and the 230 grain .45 ACP as surplus for a rainy day.
There are many different bullets out there and construction makes a big difference . JSP, JHP -is the lead core bonded to the jacket ? If so it's a better bullet .Thickness ,alloy and shape of the bullet ,alloy of the lead [antimony is added.].All make a difference.
For example Speer makes their Gold Dot for defense and their similar looking hunting bullet 'Deep Curl' which is heavier in construction to penetrate much deeper. Look the same , perform very differently !!
For example Speer makes their Gold Dot for defense and their similar looking hunting bullet 'Deep Curl' which is heavier in construction to penetrate much deeper. Look the same , perform very differently !!
Winchester "white box" 230 gr. 45 acp out of a 5'' barrel, average for 5 shots:
Winchester "white box" 230 JHP @ 912 fps / 424# KE
Ranger T was slightly more powerful:
Winchester Ranger T 230 @ 928 fps / 440# KE
IMO a 230 gr. 45 HP with over 400# KE should be "adequate" for SD.
Winchester "white box" 230 JHP @ 912 fps / 424# KE
Ranger T was slightly more powerful:
Winchester Ranger T 230 @ 928 fps / 440# KE
IMO a 230 gr. 45 HP with over 400# KE should be "adequate" for SD.
People place a great deal of emphasis on numbers, often to the detriment of other factors. Yep, it's really interesting that Load A expands 0.0042" more in the manufacturer's ballistic gel testing, but that doesn't tell me if the ammunition is accurate or reliable in my gun.
There are many differences between factory loads, most of which are relatively minor. All things said, I'm more concerned with reliability, accuracy, and controllability than I am with (what is often) marketing hype.
There are many differences between factory loads, most of which are relatively minor. All things said, I'm more concerned with reliability, accuracy, and controllability than I am with (what is often) marketing hype.
carguychris
New member
+1, but I'd like to add a couple of tidbits about my testing process.
First, after you identify several types you want to try, test them all during the same range trip rather than testing them several weeks apart. This will give you a much better idea which ones are more accurate and controllable for you, in your gun, under the same conditions.
I'm very scientific; in order to prevent self-bias, I'll load my magazines beforehand, identify the type of ammo in each one with a sticker, and shoot them in random order.
Second, if possible, try to test them in dark conditions. This will help you identify which loads may blind you if you have to defend yourself at night. FWIW I've found that one of the main pluses of the higher-priced loads is that they often (but not always!) have substantially less muzzle flash.
In my mind, three factors override everything else when selecting a self-defense handgun loading. In order of importance:
1. Reliability in my particular firearm
2. Minimum of 12" penetration in 10% Ballistic Gelatin (FBI recommendation)
3. Reliable and consistent expansion
In major caliber handguns (.38+P/9mm and up) I expect all three of those criteria to be met and in minor calibers (standard pressure .38 Special/.380 Auto and smaller) I will sacrifice number 3 if necessary to get numbers 1 and 2.
As to whether or not "budget line" JHP's can meet these criteria, it depends on the particular caliber and loading as some can while others can't. Because the OP specifically mentioned 9mm and .45 ACP, I'll address those cartridges specifically. While I use premium ammo in my .45 (Federal HST), I would feel comfortable using a "budget line" JHP like WWB, UMC, or American Eagle if cost or availability was an issue with the premium fodder. Even with older bullets, a .45 is able to have a large enough HP cavity to expand reliably even at low velocity and enough weight to penetrate adequately.
With a 9mm, however, I will only use premium loadings (my current choice is Winchester Ranger). The problem with older 9mm JHP loadings is that you often have to sacrifice either expansion or penetration. With dated bullets, you usually have to use a 115gr or lighter bullet in order to get enough velocity for reliable expansion with a 9mm. Unfortunately, this combination with dated bullets often yields lackluster penetration in the 8-10" range. The other side of the coin is a heavier 147gr bullet at lower velocity. While this does penetrate well, the 9mm cartridge simply cannot drive older bullets of that weight fast enough to expand reliably. Newer bullet designs allow light, fast 9mm loadings to have controlled expansion and thus penetrate adequately and heavier, slower 9mm loadings to expand more reliably at lower velocities.
Also, premium JHP loadings really aren't that much more expensive than "budget line" JHP's if you know where to look. Midway currently lists WWB 9mm 115 or 147gr JHP for $18.79 for a 50 round box and WWB .45 ACP 230gr JHP for $32.49 for a 50 round box. That does indeed seem much cheaper than premium JHP's if you only look at the commercially packaged stuff usually encountered at big box stores, but premium JHP can be had in LEO packaging for greatly reduced prices from sources like SG Ammo and Ammunition To Go. SG Ammo currently has Winchester Ranger 9mm in standard pressure, +P, and +P+ loaded with SXT/T-Series or bonded bullets for $19.95-$28.95 for a box of 50 depending on the particular loading. Likewise, the have Winchester Ranger .45 ACP in both standard pressure and +P loaded with either T-Series or bonded bullets for $29.95-31.95 for a box of 50 depending on the particular loading.
1. Reliability in my particular firearm
2. Minimum of 12" penetration in 10% Ballistic Gelatin (FBI recommendation)
3. Reliable and consistent expansion
In major caliber handguns (.38+P/9mm and up) I expect all three of those criteria to be met and in minor calibers (standard pressure .38 Special/.380 Auto and smaller) I will sacrifice number 3 if necessary to get numbers 1 and 2.
As to whether or not "budget line" JHP's can meet these criteria, it depends on the particular caliber and loading as some can while others can't. Because the OP specifically mentioned 9mm and .45 ACP, I'll address those cartridges specifically. While I use premium ammo in my .45 (Federal HST), I would feel comfortable using a "budget line" JHP like WWB, UMC, or American Eagle if cost or availability was an issue with the premium fodder. Even with older bullets, a .45 is able to have a large enough HP cavity to expand reliably even at low velocity and enough weight to penetrate adequately.
With a 9mm, however, I will only use premium loadings (my current choice is Winchester Ranger). The problem with older 9mm JHP loadings is that you often have to sacrifice either expansion or penetration. With dated bullets, you usually have to use a 115gr or lighter bullet in order to get enough velocity for reliable expansion with a 9mm. Unfortunately, this combination with dated bullets often yields lackluster penetration in the 8-10" range. The other side of the coin is a heavier 147gr bullet at lower velocity. While this does penetrate well, the 9mm cartridge simply cannot drive older bullets of that weight fast enough to expand reliably. Newer bullet designs allow light, fast 9mm loadings to have controlled expansion and thus penetrate adequately and heavier, slower 9mm loadings to expand more reliably at lower velocities.
Also, premium JHP loadings really aren't that much more expensive than "budget line" JHP's if you know where to look. Midway currently lists WWB 9mm 115 or 147gr JHP for $18.79 for a 50 round box and WWB .45 ACP 230gr JHP for $32.49 for a 50 round box. That does indeed seem much cheaper than premium JHP's if you only look at the commercially packaged stuff usually encountered at big box stores, but premium JHP can be had in LEO packaging for greatly reduced prices from sources like SG Ammo and Ammunition To Go. SG Ammo currently has Winchester Ranger 9mm in standard pressure, +P, and +P+ loaded with SXT/T-Series or bonded bullets for $19.95-$28.95 for a box of 50 depending on the particular loading. Likewise, the have Winchester Ranger .45 ACP in both standard pressure and +P loaded with either T-Series or bonded bullets for $29.95-31.95 for a box of 50 depending on the particular loading.
1. reliability
2. penetration
3. size of hole - by caliber and/or by expansion
4. accuracy (for self defense distances, does
I'm pretty much with Webleymkv. I use premium defensive ammo in .45 acp but the second mag that I carry (or sometimes carry) is FMJ. A .45 hole is a sizeable hole even if it doesn't expand.
I also use premium defensive ammo on .38 spl standard and +P and 9mm. With .357 magnum, I usually use it as well but am quite comfortable with standard JHPs. In .380, I use FMJ to make sure there is adequate penetration.
2. penetration
3. size of hole - by caliber and/or by expansion
4. accuracy (for self defense distances, does
I'm pretty much with Webleymkv. I use premium defensive ammo in .45 acp but the second mag that I carry (or sometimes carry) is FMJ. A .45 hole is a sizeable hole even if it doesn't expand.
I also use premium defensive ammo on .38 spl standard and +P and 9mm. With .357 magnum, I usually use it as well but am quite comfortable with standard JHPs. In .380, I use FMJ to make sure there is adequate penetration.
With my 380 I feel more comfortable carrying Hornady hollow points. That's just me though. I shot a clip of them the other day just to make sure they work well in my gun and see how they shoot and I shot very well with them and my gun loved them. Now if I was carrying something bigger I may not worry about it so much.
FairWarning
New member
If you know where to shop, you can buy premium SD rounds in bulk at very affordable prices. Progress has definitely been made in the last 10 years, so why not use it? Especially for 9mm.
I use 124 HSTs, GDHPs and Ranger-Ts as my "front lines" ammo and have plenty standard HPs and FMJs stockpiled. I have moved away from 115 gr 9mm rounds to 124s and 127s going forward. I am still unconvinced that any 147 is even equal to the best 124s and 127s available.
I use 124 HSTs, GDHPs and Ranger-Ts as my "front lines" ammo and have plenty standard HPs and FMJs stockpiled. I have moved away from 115 gr 9mm rounds to 124s and 127s going forward. I am still unconvinced that any 147 is even equal to the best 124s and 127s available.
I would say definitely yes,but I depend on being able to at least test shoot my self defense round at the range enough to know where it will go so I can't afford to buy rounds that are twenty dollars for twenty.
I restrict myself to boxes of fifty and let my target grouping do the rest.
I will likely and hopefully never have to find out otherwise but every shot on target should do the job if i can do that under extreme duress-however unlikely that is.
Most jhp's should outperform lead nose rounds unless we are talking about specialty rounds such as Buffalo Bores excellent custom loaded lead rounds.
I restrict myself to boxes of fifty and let my target grouping do the rest.
I will likely and hopefully never have to find out otherwise but every shot on target should do the job if i can do that under extreme duress-however unlikely that is.
Most jhp's should outperform lead nose rounds unless we are talking about specialty rounds such as Buffalo Bores excellent custom loaded lead rounds.
Adamantium
New member
I think there are huge difference between hollow points, but much less in ones marketed as premium personal defence rounds. With some JHP's like Montana Gold you might as well be shooting solids. And my understanding is those did make it into some Double Tap "personal defense" ammo.
But in the exact context of the question, I'd carry a wally world JHP before I carried a FMJ, but on the off chance that I'd have to shoot is self defense I'd rather have premium ammo. Fiocchi Extrema with Hornady XTP's are $25 for 50 in 9mm so I don't see a justification for rolling with WWB or UMC.
The one group of bullets I wouldn't trust is the bargain level heavy for caliber JHP's. Like 147 for 9mm or 180 for 40 S&W. Those bullets are the very reason people still say heavy JHP's don't expand or are not effective.
But in the exact context of the question, I'd carry a wally world JHP before I carried a FMJ, but on the off chance that I'd have to shoot is self defense I'd rather have premium ammo. Fiocchi Extrema with Hornady XTP's are $25 for 50 in 9mm so I don't see a justification for rolling with WWB or UMC.
The one group of bullets I wouldn't trust is the bargain level heavy for caliber JHP's. Like 147 for 9mm or 180 for 40 S&W. Those bullets are the very reason people still say heavy JHP's don't expand or are not effective.
Stevie-Ray
New member
Thank you, Tom. You wouldn't believe all the crap I get for using HydraShoks, ever since HSTs came out. Sorry, HSTs don't run as well in my weapon, not as accurate and fairly inconsistent. Something new and exciting comes out and you'd think we've all been using BB guns up til now.Tom Servo said:
Well, that's just marketing for ya. If I don't use Kill Tech Swatto Supr-Expando ® bullets, I will die. No, really. In fact, I must be posting from beyond the grave because I wasn't cutting edge enough to buy Supr-Expando ® bullets!
(For optimal terminal performance, the makers of Supr-Expando ® and their parent company Cyberdyne Defense Dynamics recommend that you only carry their ammunition in whatever whiz-bang 1911 is on the cover of this month's Guns & Ammo.)
Yeesh.
One factor that bears mentioning is muzzle flash. I don't know what powder blend they use, but Black Hills gets the Tom Servo Gold Star for making a .357 load that doesn't set off a bloom at the muzzle like a transformer being struck by lightning.
jhgreasemonkey
New member
There have been a few studies and articles by guys like Massad Ayoob who studied police shootings with the 9mm when it was widely used. If I remember right all of the 115 grain and 124 grain JHP's by Federal and Winchester worked pretty good. The 147 grainers got a bad rap because the early ones wouldn't exand well and wouldn't function well in some pistols that would shoot the lighter stuff more reliably. Maby someone can elaborate on this info more as it's just from memory and I don't have the sources or links to post.
But my point is that I'm happy using what the big police departments used and had good results with. Some of it is pretty affordable. Seems like most experts agree that if you stay away from the foriegn made jhp's, and the over the top "super tactical ultra fang face angry walrus exploder extreme" overpriced fringe stuff, and stick with just about any American JHP in 115 grain and especially 124 grain you will be using a good bullet. But I don't claim to be an expert, I just like to read and sometimes if I'm lucky I remember some of it.
But my point is that I'm happy using what the big police departments used and had good results with. Some of it is pretty affordable. Seems like most experts agree that if you stay away from the foriegn made jhp's, and the over the top "super tactical ultra fang face angry walrus exploder extreme" overpriced fringe stuff, and stick with just about any American JHP in 115 grain and especially 124 grain you will be using a good bullet. But I don't claim to be an expert, I just like to read and sometimes if I'm lucky I remember some of it.
Some JHP bullets are more prone to plugging with clothing or other material than other JHP bullets and not expanding. A bullet that does not expand is not something you want to occur. Another thing to consider is that some bullets do not expand much if at all when shot from a shorter barrel handgun. The NRA did a test a while back on some different 9x19 JHP ammo. The bullet that expanded the most from a 5" barrel barley expanded when shot from a 3" barrel. Find what is reliable, accurate and expands properly when shot from your firearm.