Is there a book about 1800 S&W and the Russians?

DaleA

New member
I've always been curious about the Russians and S&W in the 1800's.

1. How did the Russians hear about S&W?
2. With all the gun manufacturers in Europe why did the Russians choose an American company?
3. With the turmoil in Russia was S&W concerned about getting paid for the guns?
4. Wasn't shipping a major problem (price wise) for the contract?
5. What other guns were in the running with S&W for the contract?
6. What features swung the Russians over to S&W side?
7. Back then, was there any import/export laws concerning the saie?
8. How much did S&W sales suffer because of their production going to Russia?
9. If the Russians were buying American guns why wouldn't they accept American cartridges (and probably get a better deal)...why did they insist on their own?
10. How many guns did the Russians wind up buying from S&W?
11. Did S&W consider establishing a plant in Russia?

Anybody know of a book or reference that covers these questions?
 
Not sure if "Standard Catalog Of Smith & Wesson" by Supica & Nahas will answer all your questions. If You do not have it, you will want a copy of the 4th Edition.

You can also check any of Mr. Roy G. Jinks' publications for additional research.
 
1. How did the Russians hear about S&W?

Czar Nickolas came to the United States for a buffalo hunt. Story is that the government went all out to accommodate him and his entourage. Included in his party as guides were George A. Custer and Buffalo Bill. Supposedly the Czar was impressed with the S&W Model 3 that Cody carried.

3. With the turmoil in Russia was S&W concerned about getting paid for the guns?

Payment was made in advance. In gold.

6. What features swung the Russians over to S&W side?

The Czar. What the Czar wants, the Czar gets, has always been prudent.

5. What other guns were in the running with S&W for the contract?

There were none. When you're the czar, you pretty much get your way.

9. If the Russians were buying American guns why wouldn't they accept American cartridges (and probably get a better deal)...why did they insist on their own?

The American made cartridges eliminated the rebated heel bullet. Russian cartridges were heel crimped, probably the Russians felt this was more traditional. Most of their ammunition was produce at Tula, I think, and likely was the way they were set up.



Bob Wright
 
The visiting buffalo hunter was Grand Duke Alexei Alexandrovich of Russia.

Alexander II was the Tsar while Custer was in the saddle.

The original revolver was chambered for the S&W American, which had a heel-type bullet. The Russians wanted a cartridge that did not have an outside lubricated bullet. From that the S&W Russian came about.
 
Howdy

Where to begin? You are not going to get the answers to all your questions in one book.

Here are a few that are helpful.

The Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson. This is the S&W enthusiasts bible. It covers everything S&W ever made from 1854 up to the present. However since it is a general book, sometimes there is not a lot of detail. There is a 4th edition out now, but I am still using the 3rd edition because I pretty much know where everything is in it.

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Roy Jinks (the official S&W historian) published this terrific little book back in 1977. Unfortunately it is out of print now. If you hunt the internet you can find a copy. I just checked Amazon and there are a bunch available. One is only $25.51. I'd be all over that if I did not already have a copy. Roy has some very clear information regarding the Russian model in this book, including a break down of how many were made of each model.

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Another classic S&W book, the bible for S&W collectors. Copyrighted in 1966 and 1975. Reissued in 1996. Currently available lots of places. Very detailed information about the Russian contracts in the '44 Caliber' chapter.

neal%20and%20jinks_zpszr3yjqma.jpg





This book is only about the big, #3 S&W Top Breaks. A couple of chapters about the Russian contracts and the evolution of the Russian model from the American model. Published 2006, currently available on Amazon. Written by Charles W. Pate, in case you can't make it out.

Smith%20and%20Wesson%20American%20Model_zpsbnajqhkq.jpg





So if you want to learn a lot about S&W, you have to make some investments in books, you ain't going to find everything in one place.

The Russians had an agent in the US named Colonel Alexander Gorloff, or perhaps Gorlov, in the 1860s. Their defeat in the Crimean War of 1854 to 1856 made the Russians aware of the inadequacy of the small arms in their military. The US was the leader in the most modern revolvers at the time, and the Russians sent Gorloff to the US to learn all he could about American arms production. The US government made introductions for Gorloff to many American Arms companies, including Colt, S&W, and the Springfield Armory. Gorloff was responsible for the lucrative contracts S&W won with the Russians. In 1869, when the Rollin White patent for revolvers with bored through cylinders expired, S&W had a brand new design ready for production, the model that eventually became known as the American model. The US government ran some trials in 1870, and eventually the US govt ordered 1000 of the American model. Gorloff was present at the trials and S&W presented him with a prototype. The Russians were considering Remington breech loading single shot pistols at the time, but when they found out the Prussians were using revolvers, that probably tipped the balance in favor of the S&W revolver.

Some of the American models were chambered for the 44 Henry Rimfire cartridge, but most were chambered for the 44 S&W cartridge. Both of these used a heeled bullet, with the bullet the same diameter as the cartridge case. Lubrication of cartridges with heeled bullets was on the outside of the cartridge and the soft bullet lube could pick up dirt and contaminants. So the Russians specified a new cartridge, basically the same as the 44 S&W, but with a bullet of a smaller diameter, so lubrication grooves could be contained within the cartridge case. This became the 44 Russian cartridge and it was such a good design that it became the most popular chambering for all S&W #3 revolvers, long after the Russian contracts came to an end.

The cartridges in this photo, left to right, are 44-40, 44 Special, 44 Russian, 44 S&W American, 44 Rimfire Henry, 45 Schofield, and 45 Colt. You can see the lube grooves in the 44 Henry and 44 S&W American bullets, although the lube has long since disappeared.

4440_44Sp_44R_44Am_44H_45Sch_45C-1.jpg






There followed a period of several prototypes being made, with different grip designs, and several other improvements to the American model. This eventually culminated with the strange grip design of the Russian model, as well as several other more subtle improvements over the American model. The Russians sent an inspector named Captain Ordinetz to the S&W factory to inspect all revolvers produced under the Russian contracts. S&W commented that Ordinetz was the strictest inspector they had ever encountered. Guns he rejected were fixed, remarked, and sold on the US commercial market. Some of the 'improvements' to the Russian model, such as the weird grip shape, which was supposed to prevent the revolver from rotating in the hand, and the spur on the trigger guard, were probably specified by Ordinetz.

Sorry Bob, but the Czar never came to America. However in 1871 Grand Duke Alexis made a grand tour of the US, including stopping at many American arms makers. When he visited S&W, he was presented with an ornate, gold inlaid and engraved revolver, that reportedly cost $400 to produce. $100 to carve the pearl grips, and $100 for the rosewood case. The fanciest engraved models S&W exhibited at the San Francisco Fair in 1875 reportedly cost $75, so the Duke's revolver must have been quite something. After his visit to S&W, the Duke attended a well publicized hunting trip with Buffalo Bill and was very impressed with Bill's American model revolver. Duke Alexis was the highest ranking member of the Russian Government to visit S&W.

This is a 2nd Model Russian, Commercial model. It left the factory in 1875.


Russian02.jpg





Not quite sure what turmoil in the Russian government you're talking about. The Russian revolution was in 1917. The S&W Russian contracts ran from about 1871 until about 1878.

The features that impressed the Russians was it was the only metallic cartridge revolver available at the time that was not a conversion from percussion revolvers. Colt was still making conversion models until the SAA came out in 1873, although some of the Conversion models were actually designed as cartridge revolvers from the beginning. S&W offered a revolver that automatically ejected all the spent cartridges when the gun was opened, and could be reloaded while the gun was still open, unlike the Colt Conversions which had to be emptied and reloaded one chamber at a time.

S&W was working flat out supplying revolvers to the Russians, eventually producing about 150,000 of them, plus other contracts to the Turkish and Japanese governments. This did limit the number of revolvers S&W could produce for the domestic market. In fact, the American model was eventually dropped so S&W could concentrate on the Russian model.

No idea about import/export restrictions, but I'll bet there were not many in the 1870s.

There were many imitations of S&W revolvers produced in Europe. Some of the worst came from Belgium. Some were outright counterfeits, but international law being what it was it was difficult for S&W to force them to cease production.

Two factories that produced excellent Russian Model revolvers were Ludwig and Lowe in Germany and Tula in Russia. I am not sure about the legality of the relationship these companies had with S&W.
 
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"The Russians wanted a cartridge that did not have an outside lubricated bullet."

"So the Russians specified a new cartridge, basically the same as the 44 S&W, but with a bullet of a smaller diameter, so lubrication grooves could be contained within the cartridge case."

Oddly enough, you'd think that would be the case, but....

No.

The ORIGINAL .44 Russian cartridges (loaded both in the United States for the Russian contract and later at Tula Arsenal in Russia) had bullets that were...

Outside lubricated.

That's right, the grease grooves in the early versions of the .44 Russian cartridge were often ABOVE the case mouth, not enclosed by the case as is the case today.

You can see what I'm talking about in the photo (scroll down a bit) in this discussion:

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=152854


It wasn't until some years later that the grease grooves started to be commonly covered by the case neck.
 
"How much did S&W sales suffer because of their production going to Russia?"

Realistically, not much.

The Russians bought far more No. 3s than the company likely would have ever sold to the US government/civilian population combined.

S&W's main sales in the United States weren't it's large frame guns, but its small breaktops.

S&W sold hundreds of thousands of those, if not over a million, domestically.
 
DaleA said:
2. With all the gun manufacturers in Europe why did the Russians choose an American company?
Recall that we're discussing the 1870s.

Most European governments were monarchies prone to rivalries. More than a few of them would be concerned about the possibility of eventual war against Imperial Russia. Many European arms makers were either under the direct control of these monarchies, or were beholden to them for patronage.

U.S.-Russian geopolitical rivalry was near-nonexistent at the time; as far as each country was concerned, the other was more-or-less politically neutral. Furthermore, the United States mostly stayed out of European politics, and its vast size and geographical and economic isolation from Europe made it highly unlikely that Imperial Russia's rivals would attempt any sort of military or political intervention over an arms contract—or realistically believe that such an intervention could be productive.

Buying from the U.S. virtually guaranteed that these contracts would be purely commercial transactions unsullied by petty political considerations. :)
DaleA said:
4. Wasn't shipping a major problem (price wise) for the contract?
I speculate that the czar could readily charter a oceangoing vessel large enough to accommodate each shipment. Consider how many handguns will fit into a modern shipping container; even though the sailing ships of the 1870s were far smaller than freighters today, it would have been easy to find one large enough to carry thousands of these revolvers.
 
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"I speculate that the czar could readily charter a oceangoing vessel large enough to accommodate each shipment."

Actually, the gold payments were sent on Russian Navy ships, which then loaded already paid for revolvers and took them back to Russia.

This was an active period of interaction between the US and Russian Governments.

As noted, the Grand Duke visited the United States in late 1871-early 1872.

Later in 1872 General W. T. Sherman and his aides, including the son of President Grant, visited Russia as part of a larger European tour and were received by the Tsar.

The Grand Duke made a second visit to the US in 1877, and in 1877-1878 the US provided Russia with weapons, navy ships, and other aide during the Russo-Turkish war.

There was LOTS of interaction between the two nations in addition during this time.
 
Mike writes that "There was LOTS of interaction between the two nations in addition during this time." You bet - the Russians were talking about selling Alaska to the USA by 1859, and in 1867 the two countries agreed on the terms and Alaska was acquired by the USA. Who knows - perhaps this helped pave the way for S&W to do business with Russia.
 
Thank you all for the information. It always interested me that a U.S. company (S&W) could play so well in the international arena back in the 1800's. I've got some time on my hands now and wanted to look into it a bit more and you all have given me a bunch of suggestions and information. Thanks! This forum is really a wonderful, amazing resource.
 
" It always interested me that a U.S. company (S&W) could play so well in the international arena back in the 1800's."

If you think that S&W was doing well internationally, you need to take a look at Remington's international activities at this time.
 
I'm shocked someone told me something I didn't know about early S&Ws before gun expert Woody, formerly known as Drifty, did.
 
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