Is the second amendment obsolete?

R

Rob308

New member
It seems like many people who post on this forum think that fascism could never happen in the USA. When someone says that we are moving that way, even when they offer lots of evidence, most on this forum will laugh and say that person is a conspiracy theorist.

The reason the second amendment exists is to prevent tyranny. The founders did not put it into the constitution so we could hunt turkeys or defend against robbers. They put it into the constitution so the government would respect us and if we ever needed to, to overthrow a bad government.

So.. if the US is never going to turn into a dictatorship, isn't the second amendment pointless?
 
I'll give the same response as when people point out that the militias can be called up by the very man who we're supposed to stop from being a tyrant.

A well-trained group of individuals capable of thinking for themselves and with the ability to put a chunk of lead through a watermelon from a thousand feet make you think twice about doing something stupid.
 
I think a big part of the reason why the US has never had Tyranny of either
the Right or the Left is because of the Second Amendment. Its effectiveness
is a big part of the reason why we should keep defending it.
 
So.. if the US is never going to turn into a dictatorship, isn't the second amendment pointless?
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Never is a long time, and the course from republic through empire is treacherous. But in the shorter term I'd just ask:

Ever have your neighborhood torn up by a hurricane? There were gangs of looters roaming not too far from my house in Miami after hurricane Andrew, but we didn't see anyone from any level of government for two full days after the storm, except for the ones in helicopters. Good time to have a house with guns and plenty of armed neighbors.
 
I think a big part of the reason why the US has never had Tyranny of either the Right or the Left is because of the Second Amendment.
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Well, some people think the USA is slowly moving in that direction. Look:

14 Points of fascism

Fascist America, in 10 easy steps

Now I think those two are missing something very important, gun confiscation. Most authoritarian regimes take guns away from their citizens so they can't resist them. But now it looks like democrats are going to take over the government in the next election. What if there's another attack.. worse than 9/11? I think I know what will happen to the second amendment and after that we won't have any other rights because we have nothing to "back them up". It will be the end of America.. basically.

Good time to have a house with guns and plenty of armed neighbors.
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Yeah I agree. I'm not saying that they are not useful for things besides intimidating and fighting the government. I'm just saying that the constitution doesn't say anything about looters, robbers or hunting. Maybe it should mention those things instead of a "free state"?
 
Not never--just not now

It's entirely possible that the Federal government could someday ATTEMPT to become a dictatorship, and therefore the 2nd will NEVER become obsolete. I just don't think it's happening NOW.

Has Bush gone too far? Maybe. I don't think so, but if enough people think he has, then the Dems will take over. For a while. It always changes again.

Someone once said that the reason the US system is the most successful (and the oldest) in the world is that we have a revolution every four years.

Our side WON with the Republican Revolution and the Contract with America. Definitively and emphatically WON. The Repubs were selling the kind if government that the MAJORITY of Americans want. That's why I'm optimistic in the long term. Trouble is, they blew it when they got into power and turned into Democrats, throwing money at every problem in sight and trying to buy popularity. The people then voted them out again.

Duh.

Maybe next time they get in--and there will be a next time--they'll stay on point.

One more point; if the Dems get in, the crazier they get--and I suspect Hillary will overestimate her "mandate" and get very crazy indeed--the faster they'll be voted out. We might lose in 2008, but 2010 might be a very good year for the Congress.
 
I always liked the sentiment that the 2nd Amendment is the one amendment that secures the rest.

We can only hope it becomes obsolete (meaning removing the possibility of tyranny), but until we actually live in utopia....

... and even then I think we'd all agree guns should remain legal based solely on personal protection and hobby alone.
 
Future?

There isn't a future. You create it with your choices. The 2nd was a choice that helped create a free society. Best keep making the same choice.
 
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The 2nd Amend. WAS are liberty teeth up to the point where the government started keeping a Standing Army, the States lost their Rights after the "Civil" War and the government started taking away our freedom to own firearms with the NFA of '34. Before 1900 most if not all wars fought by the U.S. was by Milita Units. There was no real standing army and if you read what our founders wrote they didn't want a standing army either because they knew that a corrupt government could use it against it's Citizens to enforce unjust laws.
We are at the point now were the firearms that we are ALLOWED to own by our government will do us very little good if and when the time ever came that we had to try and put down an unjust government. Basically, we're screwed and we've let it go for so long that there's really nothing we can do about it.
People today don't realize the Freedoms that they've lost because they've never had them in the first place. When's the last time you've heard anyone complain about not being able to order a gun thru the mail, or having to fill out a form to buy a gun. Never, because very few people remember or have had that Right since the GCA of '68.
Rights are taken away from one generation, they complain a bit and move on with their lives. The next generation, never having had that Right, doesn't miss it so it's a moot point to them. Then you take a bit more of their Rights away, again, a bit of complaining but hey, we can live with filling out a 4473, or with buying a Pre-86 MG so we get on with our lives and the government has turned the heat up a bit more and we hardly even notice after some time.
If you were to take someone from 1850 and place them into todays world they'd swear that we're living in a Dictatorship because of our lack of Freedoms. We don't notice it because we've never really been totally Free like the people in the 1850's but as a student of History, I notice it and it really makes me wonder where it'll end.
I used to be able to take my pocket knife to school or on a plane, now you can't. I used to take my shotgun to school so I could go hunting after school was out, now you can't. Taxes on a gallon of gas, a pack of smokes or a bottle of booze used to be fairly small, now they're a big part of the monies you pay for those goods. A well dressed man wasn't complete without his pocket pistol, now it's hard to even carry in most places with a CCW.
Like it or not our country has changed a lot in the last 150 years and it's not all been for the better. We have become slaves to the State(read Federal Government) in order to gain security but what real security do we really have when we place our trust in a government that's only really looking out for it's own best interests.
It's nice to know that you can call the Cops if someone is trying to break into your house but it's better to know you have a shotgun and a pistol to take care of things on your own if the need arises.
Security really only comes when you are able to take care of your self without the need for government or other outside help. Because in the end your and the community around you are really the only ones you can rely on.
 
Fascism, dictatorship, tyranny ... it's already happened here, it happened generations ago. States were denied representation in Congress and then put under military rule for voting against the 14th "Amendment". I don't see how people can say that it can't happen here ... maybe yankees have numerical superiority and that causes them to feel that it cannot happen to their region.

I believe that the Second Amendment regards certain natural principles which do not go away. I believe the idea that Virginians can control Virginia with small arms is archaic ... but I believe that the right of Virginians to control Virginia is inalienable.
 
The 2nd Amendment was "necessary to the security of a Free State." Despite what some folks claim, it wasn't solely to keep the King of England or other tyrants, both foreign and domestic, at bay. Security is from both internal and external threats. When the 2A was approved, it also served to protect people who had little, if anything, in the way of a police force to fend off Indians and criminals.

As for "well-regulated," that phrase was often applied to Indian tribes skilled in arms. Those same tribes had no "regulations" because they had no written language. "Well-regulated" thus had a meaning of "well-versed" or "well-disciplined" in the use of arms.

The 2A is systemic. It enables average Citizens to act as antibodies when our society is attacked by the viruses and bacteria of crime, tyranny, invasion, or terrorist attacks. Police and soldiers can't be everywhere. Free and armed Citizens can.

Self-reliance, a love of freedom, and the 2A may be abandoned, but they will never be obsolete.
 
Well, some people think the USA is slowly moving in that direction. Look:

14 Points of fascism

Fascist America, in 10 easy steps
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Well, I went a spent some time on each of those web sites. While I can support (or at least entertain) your premise, your choice of supporting data does nothing to help your case. Raving, screaming anti-Bush loons, with credibility bordering on zero. I think my favorite was:

Prosecution and job loss are nothing, though, compared with how the US is treating journalists seeking to cover the conflict in Iraq in an unbiased way.
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Of all the major news networks, which one is attempting to "cover the conflict in an unbiased way"? Fox shows some good things, the rest show every bit of bad they can dredge up or make up.

Every person I know that has served (or is serving) over there, as well as everyone I know who knows someone serving over there, is appalled by the lack of balance the MSM pumps out, day in, day out. Our local talk radio dude went over for two weeks this spring, and broadcast live from Iraq while embedded with all kinds of USAF, USMC, USA regulars and reserve/NG. Everyone from E-2s to O-6s said that what they saw on TV/read in newspapers was irresponsible/grossly misleading, bordering on intentionally deceitful.

What is going on there is being very selectively reported. Is this a surprise to anyone?

Sorry, I like tinfoil as much as anyone, and I believe that our government is guilty of some serious abuses. However, using these sources as evidence pretty much invalidates your argument in it's entirety. Kind of like using a blind madman to predict the weather. His prediction might be correct, but he didn't get there using evidence or logic...
 
give me a break...

I took a look at those sites, too. The first was about as hysterical as it gets. Did you notice that the next article down from "14 Points of Fascism" was "September 11: THey Let It Happen"?

Check out the links from that site. 3rd from the top was--drum roll, please--Al Jazeera in English!

Here's the first of the "14 Points":

"1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism.
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays."

There it is. Patriotism = Fascism. Don't wave the flag; if you do, you're a fascist. How contemptible is that?

The rest were no better. The military is evil, "National Security" is s scam, concern for effective law enforcement is repression, yada yada yada. I especially liked the one on
"Controlled Mass Media". I guess that one explains why the Abu Ghraib story was on the front page of the New York Times for thirty-two straight days; they wanted to help Bush seize power...

I've seen more believable story lines on The
Twilight Zone.

The scary part, to me, is that there are people who actually believe this stuff. It's been called "Bush Derangement Syndrome," and it's a pretty serious thing. If psychosis is defined as being out of touch with reality, well... We're getting pretty close here. Black helicopters, anyone?
 
No, the Founding Fathers wanted the 2nd Amendment to guard against tyranny and lawlessness. Both of these safeguards were the reason IMHO.
 
Maybe I should ask this instead... if we always had a republican president would it be obsolete?

Our local talk radio dude went over for two weeks this spring, and broadcast live from Iraq while embedded
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Embedded journalists can never be unbiased... but I agree that the media is biased against the war now. It wasn't always that way though. At first, they were very biased in favor of it, if they hadn't been and they had done their job we wouldn't be in Iraq now.

But it's not surprising they have turned against it... if it is going so good why aren't we out of there already?

Patriotism = Fascism. Don't wave the flag; if you do, you're a fascist.
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Waving a flag and blindly following the leader is not patriotism. Fighting for the things that make your county great is patriotism.

The reason there is "Powerful and Continuing Nationalism" in most fascist regimes is because they have to make their people think their nation is superior to all other nations to justify the things they do.

Abu Ghraib
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Did you know that the government kept the media from reporting the Abu Ghraib story for a few weeks?

The military is evil, "National Security" is s scam, concern for effective law enforcement is repression
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It didn't say any of that.
 
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Change one and the rest will follow

If you change one amendment, it makes it easy to think and change the rest. They have worked for two hundred years and served as a core. How many other countries can claim keeping to a set of core beliefs for that long. The founders were visionaries and did an extraordinary job.
 
It's always easier to attack the source than the argument.

cnorman,
Our side WON with the Republican Revolution and the Contract with America. ... The Repubs were selling the kind if government that the MAJORITY of Americans want. ...Trouble is, they blew it when they got into power and turned into Democrats,... The people then voted them out again.

I suspect Hillary will overestimate her "mandate" and get very crazy indeed--the faster they'll be voted out.
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That's about the gist of it. When the pendulum swings, it always swings too far. What I disagree with is the notion than next time the Republicans will somehow get it right.

Yes, the 2nd Amdt is still relavant, but it's on life support right along with the rest of the Constitution. It's up to us to promote it's health.
 
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