Is the "manual of arms" a big deal?

H

Handy

Moderator
You always see commentary about pros and cons of different guns, including their manual of arms, or functional controls.

Favorites to comment or complain on are the HK P7, Browning BDM, Star Ultrastar, etc. Mainly it's about the direction or placement of controls. Often there is an insistance that some weapons don't mix because they are too different in use.

Does anyone here feel that they have such concrete habit patterns that they can't add a new one without confusion?

Personally, I have and/or shoot a squeeze cocker, a 1911 cocked and locked, a combination cock/decock lever, a safety decocker, a safe action and a decock only. Mag releases vary from typical, ambi and heel. Yet I alternate at combat (IDPA) matches without problem.

Am I missing out on really refining a single guns technique, or is it really no big deal as long as you're familiar with the weapon?
 
Thank you, Handy.

I, too, commit the "tactical faux pas" of mixing a P7 in with Glocks, 1911's, a SIG, and the occasional wheelgun for carry.

I'd like to think that I use each of these enough and put enough thought into what I carry for the day that I won't try to stuff an HKS speedloader into my P7M8's magwell, but I'm frequently told I'm wrong.
 
Yet I alternate at combat (IDPA) matches without problem.
Click to expand...

Where you have plenty of time to adjust to which gun you are going to use.

Hopefully you will never have to draw and fire in anger, and maby clear a malf........to save the life of you or yours.

No time to think which gun is in your hand,

Manual of arms, well learned, IS important. How important is up to you.

Sam
 
That's just the thing, Sam. I do exactly what I do to carry that I do to shoot IDPA - holster and shoot. The preparation comes when you decide to carry a particular gun. I've never gotten to the point that I'm not constantly aware of the loaded weapon pressing against me. And the right thing to do goes naturally with the feel of the weapon's grip and trigger.
 
One experience

My first handgun was a revolver.

Later, I acquired and practiced a lot with a Glock. I only broke out the revolver for plinking at the farm.

Went to a defensive tactics course. Ran some simunition scenarios. The instructor handed me a 686 loaded with sims. I figured there wouldn't be any problem. After all, I learned on a revolver.

I entered the "house" and was promptly in the middle of an "Active Shooter" scenario. Adrenaline dump. Went for cover, drew, front sight, one hit...

...no second pop. Huh? Let the trigger out again and got a second pop and hit. Instructor called "cease fire".

Opened the cylinder -- sure enough, the second round had no primer strike. I had short-stroked the trigger.

Care to guess where I picked up the short-reset habit?

I know this doesn't apply to people who practice a lot with revolvers or who don't do the short reset thing with their autopistols. It was just a screw-up on my part. It sure made me think long and hard about stress and a consistent manual of arms, though.
 
I have made it a point to shoot in a different Category of IDPA each season - each FULL season. I do not swap off action types during the year, although I will shoot and carry different makes, models, calibers, etc. I have found that at the end of each season, which I conclude with the Nationals, it takes me at least two weeks to transition to something else. That is two weeks with daily handling and dryfire, as frequent practice as I can schedule, and a match to throw in some stress.

I once owned a P7-PSP. A nice gun, that I mastered and used for a while. But I could not alternate it with any other action type at all. Let me shoot a SA auto or revolver a little and I would go into "pump action" with the P7, squeezing, releasing, and resqueezing each shot. Why, I don't know, but I couldn't beat it and was unwilling to make it my only gun. So I sold it and stayed with conventional types.

So, yes, the manual of arms matters to me.
 
I think some people interface with machines better then others. I tend to interface with them quite well (actualy better then I do with people :) )


I use a Mac at work and a PC at home ... the PC runs both Windows and Linux.

I drive an old Porsche, but sometimes I also drive the wife's Nissan, or I occasionaly borrow my dads old Dodge pickup.

I never have any problem instantly adjusting to the various different interfaces of any of these machines and don't expect to have any problem with carrying different types of handguns on different days.

If you're someone who interfaces well with machines then you'll probably do fine (although you should practice with all of them anyway).

If you're one who doesn't interface well with machines ... by all means, train with one gun (or style of gun) and stick with it.
 
It is to me.

My Glocks are my "working" pieces. I carry them open and concealed. The rest of my handguns (all three of them) are for target shooting or dispatching pests.

I believe in practicing the way I intend to play. YMMV, of course, and I hope that you go with what works for you.
 
For years I was a DA pistol/revolver kind of guy. You know, simple "draw and shoot" weapons. I remember when I got my first 1911 design. Drew it, pulled the trigger and nothin' happened. I guess there's somethin' to that muscle reflex theory. :confused:
 
I was originally trained on a single action auto(Browning HP) and I have to admit that over the years I keep coming back to (who would have guessed?) single action autos.

I've owned lots of DAs but never been really comfortable with them; as nice as some of them have been, the different manual of arms makes me worry about my actions under stress. There's nothing worse than thumbing at a Browning/Colt safety when the safety is on the slide...and I've done that during dry fire practice.

So, it's 1911s/BHP/Glocks for me.
 
The manual or arms really doesn't matter.

At least, until it really matters.

Huh?

Those who alternate between different computers, or different vehicles, or even different guns for sporting events generally do so in very benign circumstances. You have time to plan, think about what you are going to do, and think it through without too many outside immediate life-threatening pressures acting on you.

It seems to me that the manual of arms for a firearm is for those times when you have to perform on a moment's notice without any preparation. And when the price of failure to perform is your life or someone else's. That is when the manual of arms really matters.
 
I believe this is very important. I have been struggling with this issue over the past year, and I have finally decided to stick with one type of firearm for defensive applications. My choice was the Glock. I currently have a 19 and a 26, and as some point I will probably add a 21 for home defense work. During a high stress situation, I don't want to have to even think about the pistol in my hand, just draw and shoot. It also reduces the amount of training I have to do: I can put 200 rounds through my 19, and the grip angle, trigger pull and sight hold are similar to my 26. I have seen to many people miss a safety or short stroke a trigger because they were shooting with a sidearm that they hadn't shot in a while. Muscle memory is much harder to overcome than people think.

I also drive different cars from time to time. Occasionally, when I have to drive my car with an automatic transmission and I have to stomp on the brakes, I find myself also trying to stomp on the clutch like I do in my manual trans. car.
 
MIXED FEELINGS

I use all my guns, but my most-carried guns use same manual-of-arms (1911-pattern, cocked-n-locked, even my Witnesses).

But I feel REAL comfortable when carrying my wheels; then only difference is SIZE.

So I'd say "get really really good with whatever you use, but remember reality is when TSHTF you WILL revert to training".
 
My feeling about this is that one should practice with their primary handgun about 90% of the time (or guns with same Manual of Arms). The other 10% should be spent with other guns (rentals for me) to keep familiar with other designs incase someday you need to just pick up and use another handgun. Just think, if you spend 40% of the time with your primary weapon, how much better would you be if you spent 90%.

Just my opinion and it seems to work well for me. I still know how to use other weapons, but I am intimately familiar with MY gun.
 
Give me a random pistol and I'll perform adequately with it.

Give me my prefered pistol and my performance will increase.

The same may be said of most anyone.

Does that prove or disprove the "manual of arms" theory?

I guess that depends on how you'd like to argue it.
 
Erik,

Sounds like more of a defense. My concern wasn't as much the level of performance as much as any performance at all (trying to shoot with the safety on, etc.)

Guide to shooting any auto:

1. Make sure every lever is parallel to the bore.
2. Give it a good squeeze
3. Pull trigger

If the weapon was in a state suitable for carry, the above should work on 99% of the time. If in Israel:

4. If all else fails, cycle the slide
 
Some very good points have been made here in favor of using one gun for carry. Besides the actual functional differences between pistols, add in holster diferences and grip angle differences. I train with my SIGs, so when I present a Glock it's always muzzle high (because of the grip angle). Can I overcome this? Sure. Under stress will I *know* which grip angle is being presented? I don't think so.

Carry all of the different guns you want and claim it makes no difference in your threat response, but how many here have actually had to go to gun under stress? I once couldn't get the gun out of the holster because the holster was different from my uniform holster that I spent the majority of time training with. I have long since corrected this "issue".

If you think it matters not which gun you carry, then more power to you. But in the world of KISS, I think it does.
 
Rote Skills

Handy, there are certain types of handguns that do require memorized (rote) skills. Single action semiautomatic pistols, H&K P7-PSP, and single action revolvers come to mind. You want to put the single action pistols on safe as soon as you load them. You want your thumb automatically on the safety when you prepare to fire. When you are done firing you want to immediately put the pistol back on safe. These actions are best learned through the rote method.

A decocker also fits the rote skill definition. You want to automatically decock after loading and firing.

The H&K P7-PSP requires rote skills due to its unique design. You do not want to forget to squeeze the grip in a stress situation.

Why single action revolvers? You never want to forget to load one chamber, skip one, and load the other four chambers. Again, why? If you do there is a good chance you will sing castrato!

Regards,

Richard
 
Well, I think there are some pistols that have incompatible manuals of arms. I usually carry and shoot a 1911, so I'm used to swiping the safety down for off safe, and up for on safe. I will not carry a S&W or Beretta 92F because their decocker/safeties work in the opposite direction. I belive that under stress I would most likely revert to form and thus put a S&W on safe when I wanted it to be off. Not a good thing.

I don't have a problem with carrying a Kahr, since there's no safety at all for me to mess with -- it doesn't matter if, under stress, I try to swipe down to put it off safe.

M1911
 
Richard,

I have all the pistols you mention, except the SA revolver is a modern Ruger so six rounds are fine.

Maybe the problem isn't so much that pistols require rote memorization of their system. Could it be that if you spend too much time with one design you over specialize and loose flexibility? I notice if I don't drive my wife's car too often it's harder to drive. If I drive both often I don't loose any skill with mine, I become proficient with both.

I hope no one is shooting both pistols AND rifles!:D
 
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