Is the 1911 obsolete?

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Mr. Pub

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Is the 1911 obsolete?

Yes, I am afraid that it is.

By obsolete I don’t mean out of use, as is one of the dictionary meanings of the word. What I mean is outmoded, old, no longer current – yo grandpa’s gun.

There is nothing wrong with collecting the 1911 and even using it if you are the historical/sentimental type. But, there are some design shortcomings that have been addressed by newer guns over the last 50 years that make me question why someone would buy one as their primary gun or why a tax payer supported organization would select it. Below are the design shortcomings IMHO:

1.) 1911’s have grip safeties that can prevent the gun from firing if the grip doesn’t fit your hand just right.
2.) They have an exposed hammer that can get snagged on clothing.
3.) They have a beaver tail that interferes with the ability to conceal.
4.) They don’t have molded grips with finger grooves for a better grip.
5.) They don’t have light rails for M3 type lights.
6.) They fire an obsolete slow moving round.
7.) Manual safety that interferes with quick presentation.
8.) They seem to require an excessive amount of gunsmithing.
9.) etc.

I know that this may be a controversial topic, but I think that Americans have fallen in love with an old design for too long just as the German army fell in love with the Mauser bolt action rifle (it too was the best in its class) when they should have been converting to a self-loading rifle as were the Americans.
 
Mr. Pub,

If that is how you feel about the 1911 and the .45 ACP cartridge, you are beyond any help that I can provide. May I suggest a Shrink? Apparently you have never seen what a 1911 .45 ACP can do in the hands of a man who knows how to use it.
 
I predict that this is going to evolve into a heated argument. Its easy to ruffle the feathers of 1911 lovers, so be careful Mr Pub. ;)

My view is that 1911's and the .45 ACP cartridge are very good choices, although I personally don't have a 1911--they just are not high on my "to get" list. I do have several .45 ACP pistols though, and in no way do I believe the "slow moving" .45 round is obsolete.
 
This is either a very subtle attempt at humor, or somebody's kid brother got the password and began trolling.

I don't really see a third possibility, and expect this one to be closed soon.

Now that I think about it, though, the 1911 IS obsolete on one front: It was designed for giants and used by heroes, and both are increasingly in short supply.

Steve
 
The 1911 design is far from obsolete, although it certainly is old. As a designer, I can tell you there is no higher praise than a design that's been around 100 years and remained unchanged. Think about it.... 100 million gun nuts trying to tweak up the 1911 and the design is basically unchanged. The only real improvements have been in holding tighter manufacturing tolerances and making better piece parts. JMB did this one right.;)
 
The first question that comes to mind lately upon hearing such rhetoric is "what's your experience level with pistols in general?"

Anyway...

1.) Grip safeties are readily available to solve this problem, where it exsists, which is rare.
2.) Lots of pistols have exposed hammers. Funny how they don't snag clothing, but the 1911 ones do.
3.) Beaver tails in no way interfere with a 1911s concealabilty.
4.) Molded grips. Ahh, I have an idea of your idea of "perfection."
5.) They do too have light rails, should you choose to want one.
6.) Bwahahaha!
7.) Manual safeties, or lack thereof, have nothing to do with the speed of presentation of a pistol.
8.) They do not require massive amounts of smithing. But, if you have the money and the inclination, you can pay a smith to create a pistols with better trigger pulls, accuracy, and appeal than anything... I'd say anything comparable, but there is nothing comparable at that point.
9.) etc.

So...

Unless you're just jagging numerous TFL member's chains I think I have an idea as to the answer to my initial question:

"Not a whole lot."
 
Sure is! It is obselete right along with the wheel, electricity, and radio. In fact, I don't know why we bother anymore.

I am still trying to figure out the comments, especially the one about the obselete, slow moving round. It sure does work good for defensive purposes for a "slow" round.
 
Mr. Pub...

you wouldn't happen to have any of those obsolete POS's laying around in the safe, would you? I'd probably take 'em off your hands if you do, but since they aren't too useful, I would think you'd be ashamed to ask much more than $50 each, right?:D
 
Hmmm.

1.) 1911’s have grip safeties that can prevent the gun from firing if the grip doesn’t fit your hand just right.

Funny, I can't seem to make this happen no matter how hard I try. And it is easily disabled if you dislike it.

2.) They have an exposed hammer that can get snagged on clothing.

Uh... riiiiight. No offense, but this criticism is stupid. I wear one under a shirt. It doesn't snag.

3.) They have a beaver tail that interferes with the ability to conceal.

The 1911 is probably the easiest full-sized gun to conceal in existence, with or without a beavertail. In this regard it puts the beavertail-less full sized Glock bricks to shame.

4.) They don’t have molded grips with finger grooves for a better grip.

The 1911 grip is a hell of alot better than any gun with built-in finger grooves that I can think of. An awful lot of Glock owners despise the 3rd generation finger grooves.

5.) They don’t have light rails for M3 type lights.

You obviously haven't seen the latest from Springfield Armory.

6.) They fire an obsolete slow moving round.

... that makes really big holes in people. Of course, they are also made in such slow moving rounds as 10mm Auto.

7.) Manual safety that interferes with quick presentation.

Then leave it off.

8.) They seem to require an excessive amount of gunsmithing.

This is called a "myth."
 
Very few handguns are "obsolete" period, let alone the 1911! Maybe cap n' ball revolvers, maybe anything else for which modern JHP ammo isn't available, but that's it. If you were a crook breaking in, and encountered a homeowner armed with a Luger, what would you do? Laugh?

Guns are just bullet launchers. It's the bullet that counts. The "slow" .45 ACP still performs with the best of them, so no, neither it not the weapons that chamber it are obsolete.
 
I'm sorry, but I thought the purpose of this forum was to allow people to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of different guns and gun designs.

I think that it is sad to be accused of being a troll, just because someone doesn't agree with my opinion of a particular gun design.

It just shows you how rigid and orthodox some people's thinking has become.

"designed for giants and used by heroes" - .....Please.....its just a gun design. It was best in its class when it first came out - but has been surpased, IMHO.
 
Mr. Pub,

What you call "design shortcomings" are called attributes by others.
1.) 1911’s have grip safeties that can prevent the gun from firing if the grip doesn’t fit your hand just right.
So far, I've never met anyone who hasn't been able to depress the grip safety on my 1911s. In my opinion, if the grip safety is in proper functioning order this is a non-issue.
2.) They have an exposed hammer that can get snagged on clothing.
Most of my handguns (H&Ks, Berettas, CZs, Rugers, 1911s, etc.) have hammers and I have never had a problem snagging any of them on clothing.
3.) They have a beaver tail that interferes with the ability to conceal.
They have a beavertail if you want them to have a beavertail. Many guns have the same sort of protrusion in the same location. If you have a good concealment holster, this isn't an issue. It appears to be if you don't have experience carrying.
4.) They don’t have molded grips with finger grooves for a better grip.
This is getting a little humorous. You can have finger grooves if you like. Most don't like. I don't like. Finger grooves are created with the average user in mind. I'm not an average user. . . are you?
5.) They don’t have light rails for M3 type lights.
I have several guns with light rails. . . no lights. I'd venture to guess that fewer than 10% of owners who's firearms have rails use them. If you really want a 1911 with rails, they are available.
6.) They fire an obsolete slow moving round.
You've attempted (in vain) to show how the 1911 is obsolete, now try to show how the .45 ACP is obsolete. It kills as dead as any other round unless I'm missing something??
7.) Manual safety that interferes with quick presentation.
Anyone who knows how to use their firearm (I know, it's asking a lot) can deactivate the safety as they are presenting the gun making this a non-issue.
8.) They seem to require an excessive amount of gunsmithing.
Seem? What does that mean? You don't have experience with them? I do. None of mine have required any gunsmithing.

You've done a poor job of making any kind of arguement. You have made yourself out to look ignorant (I'm saying this in a nice way, I'm not calling you stupid). Was that your intention?
the German army fell in love with the Mauser bolt action rifle (it too was the best in its class) when they should have been converting to a self-loading rifle as were the Americans.
This analogy in no way shows how a 1911 pistol relates to a "modern" semi-auto. If you are delusional maybe. . .

Shake
 
Based on the list, the CZ-75 is obsolete for reasons 2, 3, 4, 5, & 7.

Be careful how you define obsolescense. The reasons you list are not indicators of obsolescense, but rather elements you believe make the 1911 undesirable for concealed carry. Obsolete is only a statement of the relevence of an object or policy to what is considered the norm or against other similar objects or policies. The Garand made bolt-action rifles obsolete, to be true. However, it did so because it increased the firepower available to the trooper (reliably), just as the French Lebel made other rifles obsolete by providing a much more powerful smokeless round in a repeating rifle.

The elements you mention are akin to saying the GEW 98 Mauser rifle was made obsolete by the Pattern 14 rifle (British) because the 14 had better sights, a superior safety, a more rapid action, superior bolt (the Mauser had a straight bolt, the 14 a turned bolt), a shorter barrel, etc. Yet that is not the case.

The 1911 is an old design, to be sure, but your claim of obsolescense comes from doo-dads and not from performance. Can the 1911 fire rapidly with controllability? Yes. (by the way, the new Springfield XD has a grip safety). Is the .45 an obsolete round? Ask any special operations group which returned to the .45 because it can be silenced and has great power. Is the manual safety obsolete? I would not own a pistol without one. Many, Many people would not! Is the hammer obsolete? I would not own a pistol without one, many people would not. Does it need to have a silly flashlight attached to it? Don't be stupid.

The 1911 performs just as rapidly in a firefight, with just as powerful a round and with equal combat accuracy as any other handgun. It is more suited to some tasks than a Glock, less suited in other tasks. The fact it does not come with ergo-comfy grips, a combination flash-light, GPS, laser sight, capiccino maker attachement rail, an integrated biometric sensor that allows it only to fire by its owner, or a self-actuated cloaking device to make it concealable in plain sight does not matter one hill of beans.

But then again, why do I respond to such drivel anyway???
 
Yes, the 1911 is obsolete and over rated. So is oxygen, let's see how long we can go without that nasty old oxygen stuff.:D
 
Mr. Pub,

Don't get all whiney on us now.

You knew what you bit off when you started this thread in the first place (if you didn't you are in the wrong place).

You need to be careful when you talk "design". Are you aware that most of the pistols on the market use many/most of the design features from the 1911? When you say it is obsolete, are you intoning that any firearm that shares design features with the 1911 is obsolete as well?

If so, I've got a load of hanguns to get rid of. . . want em?

Shake
 
It was best in its class when it first came out - but has been surpased, IMHO.

If you want to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of different gun designs, lets do. . .

What firearm, pray tell, surpasses the 1911 as a combat/self defense handgun?

Anxiously awaiting your reply. . .

Shake
 
Obsolete? Not on your life.

Over rated? Absolutely.

Who cares? The 1911 is an American tradition. It was a weapon that came onto the scene before it's time. It's gonna be a long time before it becomes obsolete. There are better designs out there to be sure, but that does not render JMB's masterpiece obsolete.

If only Glock would change that ridiculous grip angle...until then, I'll carry an XD-40 and keep a 1911 or two around simply because I like them.
 
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