I have no problem shooting steel case ammo in an SKS or AK 47! With that said, I relay the reason for this post: One time, at a gun show I over heard a dealer telling a customer: Don't use steel case ammo in any gun you really give a damn about, because it doesn't expand as much as the brass case causing excessive chamber pressure! Let me thank any an all for their response and reply in advance.
Is steel case ammo bad for guns?
- Thread starter leolb1
- Start date
marine6680
New member
Two things there...
(Case) Not expanding as much... Yes
Higher pressure... No
The problem really arises with the bullet construction, not the case so much.
The case not obturating (expanding and sealing the chamber) is more likely to lower pressures... but its mostly a issue of the gun getting dirtier when the chamber is not sealed well. Not a huge issue.
Bullet construction is the real crux... As most cheap steel cased ammo uses a "bi-metal" jacket over a lead core. It is bi-metal because it is mild steel coated with copper or brass.
This type of bullet can accelerate barrel wear over time. Though I think it is more an issue with rifles than handguns.
Still, its not a good idea to run it through expensive, rare, heirloom, or collector guns. At least not in any quantity...
(Case) Not expanding as much... Yes
Higher pressure... No
The problem really arises with the bullet construction, not the case so much.
The case not obturating (expanding and sealing the chamber) is more likely to lower pressures... but its mostly a issue of the gun getting dirtier when the chamber is not sealed well. Not a huge issue.
Bullet construction is the real crux... As most cheap steel cased ammo uses a "bi-metal" jacket over a lead core. It is bi-metal because it is mild steel coated with copper or brass.
This type of bullet can accelerate barrel wear over time. Though I think it is more an issue with rifles than handguns.
Still, its not a good idea to run it through expensive, rare, heirloom, or collector guns. At least not in any quantity...
I've run quite a bit of Winchester USA Forged steel cased 9mm ammo through my Gen3 Glock 17, and I've shot quite a bit of TulAmmo steel cased .45ACP through my Gen4 Glock 21. That Win USA Forged 9mm has to be the filthiest ammo I've ever seen. If the steel cases don't expand in the barrel chamber as much as the brass cases, then this might explain why that Win USA Forged ammo is so dirty! But I don't know this for sure. The biggest problem I see with steel cased ammo is that none of the indoor ranges around here allow you to use it in the first place. Neither of these 2 guns show any adverse effects from having used this steel cased ammo, i.e., chamber or extractor wear, but I'd much rather use the Fed Champion aluminum cased ammo in either of these guns, which I think is better than steel cased ammo, and actually a bit cheaper
Last edited:
carguychris
New member
That's typically not the reason, as the steel can be easily separated with a large magnet.Dan-O said:
The primary reason is that the bi-metal bullets (re: marine6680) tend to ricochet, potentially causing shrapnel to splash back at the firing line and injure customers, and causing sparks that may ignite the volatile blanket of unburned powder and tiny paper scraps that typically covers the floor.
Another major reason is that these bullets rapidly chew up the steel target hangers typically used at indoor ranges, and the range loses potential revenue when a lane has to be temporarily shut down for repairs.
Last edited:
carguychris
New member
I had the extractor of a S&W Model 3904 break while I was shooting steel-case Tulammo.JDBerg said:
I wouldn't consider this conclusive proof that the steel cases caused the extractor failure; as the old saying goes, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."
That said, brass-case ammo has gotten cheap enough and I've gotten efficient enough at handloading that I've stopped using steel-case ammo. YMMV. shootbrownelk
New member
If I can't reload it...I won't buy it. I won't buy any steel cased ammo no matter how cheap it is.
doesn't really make sense....
Smokeless propellant burns faster as it becomes more confined.
The case walls expand to seal the chamber so the expanding gasses don't escape and can continue to build higher pressures.
If anything, the lack of expansion would result in lower chamber pressures.
Cartridge cases are really little more than gaskets.
Exactly..steel and aluminum cases are false economy since they are a one time use & consumables.
A few years back, Lucky Gunner did a torture test of brass-cased, copper jacket versus steel-cased, bi-metal jacket, 55 grain .223 ammo in AR 15 carbines. They shot the carbines fast and hard until the barrels got very hot and that might have affected the result.
They found that after 10,000 rounds, the AR barrel that had shot Federal brass-cased, copper jacket ammo had plenty of life left. The AR barrels that had shot Wolf and Brown Bear bi-metal jacketed ammo were shot out by 6000 rounds. The Tula bi-metal jacketed ammo caused so many failures (stuck cases and failures to cycle) that the carbine assigned to that ammo had to be withdrawn from the test early.
The Federal brass-cased ammo did result in more gas port barrel erosion than the steel-cased ammo, probably because the reduced barrel throat erosion resulted in a better seal with the projectile.
The cost of the brass-cased ammo was estimated to be $130 more per thousand rounds than that of the steel cased ammo, so by the time you shot out your barrel you almost certainly would have saved enough money to buy one or two new ones.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/#erosion
They found that after 10,000 rounds, the AR barrel that had shot Federal brass-cased, copper jacket ammo had plenty of life left. The AR barrels that had shot Wolf and Brown Bear bi-metal jacketed ammo were shot out by 6000 rounds. The Tula bi-metal jacketed ammo caused so many failures (stuck cases and failures to cycle) that the carbine assigned to that ammo had to be withdrawn from the test early.
The Federal brass-cased ammo did result in more gas port barrel erosion than the steel-cased ammo, probably because the reduced barrel throat erosion resulted in a better seal with the projectile.
The cost of the brass-cased ammo was estimated to be $130 more per thousand rounds than that of the steel cased ammo, so by the time you shot out your barrel you almost certainly would have saved enough money to buy one or two new ones.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/#erosion
Last edited:
carguychris
New member
^^^ All true, but the issue with the Lucky Gunner torture test is that their results with the high-velocity 5.56 round are not necessarily transferable to a lower-velocity 9mm or .40 round.
Steel (and aluminium) are NOT brass. The main issue is that steel does not expand AND spring back the same as brass does. Steel (and Al) has a different coefficient of friction than brass does. This CAN make a difference, depending on the gun.
Steel cases must be coated with something (usually a lacquer of some type) to prevent them from rusting. That coating building up has been a problem in some guns (though I understand current production steel ammo has improved in that regard)
I don't (and won't) shoot steel case ammo in US designed guns. Soviet designed guns are made to shoot Soviet steel case ammo. Our guns aren't. Steel will work, but its not what our guns were designed to shoot.
Note that the only steel case ammo the US military used was in 1943 (the same year they made steel pennies), in .45acp and only for that one year's production. Do you think there might be a reason they went back to brass, despite its cost????
your gun, your wallet, your choice, but if you care about your gun, why run cheap crap in it??
dogtown tom
New member
"Lacquer buildup" is a myth. Lacquer (or the current polymer coating) doesn't buildup in the chamber and never has. What many erroneously believe is lacquer.......is carbon. Steel cases, being less ductile than brass or aluminum, allow carbon to build up in the chamber at the case mouth. Over time this may result in chambering or extraction issues.
Hogwash.
I've yet to read anything from any US gun designer EVER that indicated his design was intended for brass case ammunition only.
***and warnings in manufacturers owners manuals are more concerned with non SAAMI spec ammo than what the case is made of.
It certainly wasn't due to quality, but due to the availability of brass during raw material shortages.
The Soviets and Communist Bloc have used steel cased ammo for decades WITH NO PROBLEM. Are Commie gun designers better? After all their guns run with any ammo.
Funny, but a Porsche runs on the same gas as my Nissan.
CIP or SAAMI spec is CIP or SAAMI spec..........price is immaterial.
"...easily separated with a large magnet..." Yep. Except do you know any ranges that have one? Even the ones that look like a broom cost money most range owners don't want to spend.
Some pistols have extractors that are not as robust as others. Steel cases can and do tear out extractors. Some rifles get damaged using steel cases too. Operative word being 'some'.
"...Soviets and Communist Bloc have used steel cased ammo for decades..." Yep. And they don't care what the ammo does or might do. They don't care about accuracy either.
"...Are Commie gun designers better?..." Mikhail Kalashnikov was. Warsaw Pact stuff has never been designed like Western military kit though. Mikhail Kalashnikov didn't care about accuracy. Only about ease of manufacture and ease of maintenance for the illiterate conscripts who got the kit.
Some pistols have extractors that are not as robust as others. Steel cases can and do tear out extractors. Some rifles get damaged using steel cases too. Operative word being 'some'.
"...Soviets and Communist Bloc have used steel cased ammo for decades..." Yep. And they don't care what the ammo does or might do. They don't care about accuracy either.
"...Are Commie gun designers better?..." Mikhail Kalashnikov was. Warsaw Pact stuff has never been designed like Western military kit though. Mikhail Kalashnikov didn't care about accuracy. Only about ease of manufacture and ease of maintenance for the illiterate conscripts who got the kit.
is steeel case ammo bad for guns
In high pressure rifles the steel cases expand especially at the neck area but not as much as brass. If you run steel cases through your dies, which don't do,you will have to use a lot force to resize them. I did some berdan primed lacquer coated cases.
Shot though ad AK47 it did still leave a bit of gunk, in the chromed chamber.
Lacquer is all that I can say it was.
The reason they chrome military chambers is for dirty, or rough ammo and coated bullets and to prevent corrosion. US doesn't use steel in our bullets, but at times did try them.
The new M855A1 rounds are hard on barrels, and chambers, extractors, bolts, and due to 65000psi operating pressures.
We don't usually seek "gunk" in M16/AR15 barrels with chromed chambers and bores though, unless you shoot the imported steel stuff.They may havee changed the coatings though.
A handgun or rifle barrel minus chrome is soft. No way would I run the steel cased stuff through a riffle or handgun. Many semi auto barrels are cheap to replace though but, extractors are a pain to replace.
The steel cases don't expand as much but they don't pop back to original spec after firing in rifles anyway. Along with soft polymer coatings they want to stick and thus you break an extractor. imo
In high pressure rifles the steel cases expand especially at the neck area but not as much as brass. If you run steel cases through your dies, which don't do,you will have to use a lot force to resize them. I did some berdan primed lacquer coated cases.
Shot though ad AK47 it did still leave a bit of gunk, in the chromed chamber.
Lacquer is all that I can say it was.
The reason they chrome military chambers is for dirty, or rough ammo and coated bullets and to prevent corrosion. US doesn't use steel in our bullets, but at times did try them.
The new M855A1 rounds are hard on barrels, and chambers, extractors, bolts, and due to 65000psi operating pressures.
We don't usually seek "gunk" in M16/AR15 barrels with chromed chambers and bores though, unless you shoot the imported steel stuff.They may havee changed the coatings though.
A handgun or rifle barrel minus chrome is soft. No way would I run the steel cased stuff through a riffle or handgun. Many semi auto barrels are cheap to replace though but, extractors are a pain to replace.
The steel cases don't expand as much but they don't pop back to original spec after firing in rifles anyway. Along with soft polymer coatings they want to stick and thus you break an extractor. imo
carguychris
New member
The range doesn't separate out the steel. The company that collects all of the leftover cases does it.carguychris said:
The range managers I've talked to say that they collect far more brass than they can possibly sell to reloaders, particularly in common calibers like 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. The cases they sell have to be carefully sorted by caliber anyway. The leftovers are sold to an outside company and presumably scrapped.
That said, the fate of the cases is besides the point, and that's my point.
The range managers tell me that the no-steel policy is to protect the safety of their customers and the integrity of their range—not to preserve their supply of reloadable cases.dogtown tom said:
Does your Nissan really require high-octane gas like a Porsche?
Or maybe steel-cased ammo is like using low-octane gas in a Porsche - it will function, but with some performance penalty.
I've shot thousands of rounds of Wolf steel case in my Beretta 92FS with no noticeable wear or any malfunctions. This was in the first 5 years or so of owning it. I started reloading 9mm, so haven't shot any steel case stuff in the past 10 years or so. The only thing I've done to this Beretta is change the recoil spring once, and that was just a few months ago. Same extractor, same barrel, same everything, and every bit as accurate and reliable as the day I bought it. Matter of fact, I'm in the middle of a PPC league at the range I belong to, and am shooting Master level scores with it.
With all that said, would I shoot steel case ammo in my custom built M1911? Nope. Not a chance.
With all that said, would I shoot steel case ammo in my custom built M1911? Nope. Not a chance.