I was looking at .45 Colt ballistics and there is a 225 grain load and a 360 grain load that both show a muzzle energy in the 1100 ft lbs range. Assuming both bullets are hard cast lead, are we to conclude that both bullets would have the same effect on a charging Grizzly? Or do we ignore "muzzle energy" and figure that the 360 grain would be more effective?
Is "Muzzle Energy" significant?
- Thread starter AL45
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I do understand the question & the point you are making but I'm not so sure that a living, breathing target is the best item to ultimately test this issue. Far too many variables in the way living creatures react to gunshot wounds.
It might get us closer to the answer we seek if we could attempt to damage a more predictable object.
It might get us closer to the answer we seek if we could attempt to damage a more predictable object.
It would seem to me that the 300 grain bullet would retain its energy for a greater distance/time frame over the 225 grain bullet even if both start with the same energy. If the heavier bullet does retain it energy for a greater distance/time frame then that should equate to better penetration into a given mass.
g.willikers
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There's plenty of combinations of bullet and velocity that can yield nearly identical energy results on paper.
Would the target know the difference, though?
Bullet design no doubt has a considerable influence, too.
In this example, with both versions differing only by weight, length and associated velocity, different amounts of penetration could be expected.
How much it matters to a Grizzly would probably depend on the size of the bear.
And the answer to the question would be the common one of "it all depends."
(Would the speed of the charging bear have an effect on the bullet velocity
)
While on a fishing trip in eastern Canada, a friend and I were chased by a very large brown bear.
(Did you know they can run about as fast as a horse?)
Some critters just don't like unexpected company.
Unfortunately Canadian laws didn't allow us to bring our .44 Magnums, so we never found out what would stop a big and angry bear.
Having our car parked close by probably was a better solution anyway.
Would the target know the difference, though?
Bullet design no doubt has a considerable influence, too.
In this example, with both versions differing only by weight, length and associated velocity, different amounts of penetration could be expected.
How much it matters to a Grizzly would probably depend on the size of the bear.
And the answer to the question would be the common one of "it all depends."
(Would the speed of the charging bear have an effect on the bullet velocity
)While on a fishing trip in eastern Canada, a friend and I were chased by a very large brown bear.
(Did you know they can run about as fast as a horse?)
Some critters just don't like unexpected company.
Unfortunately Canadian laws didn't allow us to bring our .44 Magnums, so we never found out what would stop a big and angry bear.
Having our car parked close by probably was a better solution anyway.
I consider a 360gr bullet to be a rifle bullet, and have no idea why anyone would use one out of a .45 Colt handgun.
ARE you sure about that weight??
And, out of curiosity, what was the velocity they got with that uber heavy bullet?
Energy is a computation. A 9mm 115gr bullet and a .45ACP 230gr bullet (standard ball ammo) have essentially the same energy. Energy alone is not the only important factor.
EITHER one will have the effect on a charging grizzly IF they go where they need to go. If one load in a given round penetrates enough, and another (with equal energy) does not (and I see no way to test that, empirically), then I would say your choice of cartridge for the given purpose was ...sub optimal.
ARE you sure about that weight??
And, out of curiosity, what was the velocity they got with that uber heavy bullet?
Energy is a computation. A 9mm 115gr bullet and a .45ACP 230gr bullet (standard ball ammo) have essentially the same energy. Energy alone is not the only important factor.
EITHER one will have the effect on a charging grizzly IF they go where they need to go. If one load in a given round penetrates enough, and another (with equal energy) does not (and I see no way to test that, empirically), then I would say your choice of cartridge for the given purpose was ...sub optimal.
There are various formulas other than muzzle energy
There's the Taylor Knock Out Formula.
It factors bullet mass, velocity and diameter to show relative power of bullets on game.
The formula tends to favor larger diameter bullets over smaller.
And, that 360 grainer will out penetrate the 225 by a lot. A lot of hardcore shooters fire their penetrator loads into wet newspaper and I recall many loads will penetrate 3+ feet before stopping
There's the Taylor Knock Out Formula.
It factors bullet mass, velocity and diameter to show relative power of bullets on game.
The formula tends to favor larger diameter bullets over smaller.
And, that 360 grainer will out penetrate the 225 by a lot. A lot of hardcore shooters fire their penetrator loads into wet newspaper and I recall many loads will penetrate 3+ feet before stopping
What matters is a bullet that penetrates deep enough to damage vital organs. There are lots of factors that come into play and muzzle energy and velocity are 2. They can help predict how much penetration you get as well as expansion. But they are not the only factors, nor the most important.
I'd say bullet construction is far more important. Bullet weight and diameter are part of construction. A bullets length is probably the most important factor. Within the same caliber heavier equals longer so everything else being equal a heavier bullet will "USUALLY" penetrate deeper. But when comparing different calibers it is harder to predict. A heavy but soft bullet may expand too much and give poor penetration while a lighter but tougher bullet may penetrate deeper. Sometimes faster bullets penetrate less than slower bullets, but if you go so heavy that you can't get enough speed it won't penetrate either. It can be a complex issue with lots of factors to consider.
The Taylor knockout factor works great at predicting how well a bullet will knock down a steel plate. It has almost no correlation to how bullets react when they hit game animals because it doesn't consider construction.
I'd say bullet construction is far more important. Bullet weight and diameter are part of construction. A bullets length is probably the most important factor. Within the same caliber heavier equals longer so everything else being equal a heavier bullet will "USUALLY" penetrate deeper. But when comparing different calibers it is harder to predict. A heavy but soft bullet may expand too much and give poor penetration while a lighter but tougher bullet may penetrate deeper. Sometimes faster bullets penetrate less than slower bullets, but if you go so heavy that you can't get enough speed it won't penetrate either. It can be a complex issue with lots of factors to consider.
The Taylor knockout factor works great at predicting how well a bullet will knock down a steel plate. It has almost no correlation to how bullets react when they hit game animals because it doesn't consider construction.
Another bit that may not be obvious to anyone who hasn't punched numbers in to a calculator is that muzzle energy leans -SO- much in the favor of velocity that toying with bullet weights and rising velocity just jacks up the energy so quickly that it becomes pretty easy to see that muzzle energy ends up showing itself as a a computed mathematical result-- and not necessarily a USEFUL one.
An easy quick example are the "miracle" ammo products like the Glaser and "DRT" ammunition. Just look at the crazy energy figures they promote. They can return that energy because they slash the bullet weight nearly in half, the velocity obviously skyrockets as a result and the calculated energy is a jaw-dropper.
Makes the ammo product look like a stack of hydrogen bombs masquerading as 9mm cartridges. Snake oil, pretty much. There is no free lunch.
If you jack velocity up to the moon, energy flies through the roof. And the easiest possible way to jack velocity up to the moon without going over SAAMI spec pressure is to just slash bullet weight.
An easy quick example are the "miracle" ammo products like the Glaser and "DRT" ammunition. Just look at the crazy energy figures they promote. They can return that energy because they slash the bullet weight nearly in half, the velocity obviously skyrockets as a result and the calculated energy is a jaw-dropper.
Makes the ammo product look like a stack of hydrogen bombs masquerading as 9mm cartridges. Snake oil, pretty much. There is no free lunch.
If you jack velocity up to the moon, energy flies through the roof. And the easiest possible way to jack velocity up to the moon without going over SAAMI spec pressure is to just slash bullet weight.
ligonierbill
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FWIW, when I get a chance to run them over the chrono, I have some 360 Cast Performance .452 bullets loaded over H110 per Hodgdon's data. You never know until you measure them, but they should exceed 1,100 fps out of my 7 1/2" Blackhawk. Their 325's top 1,300, knuckle busters all. Why load these? Why not?
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Muzzle energy is energy as the bullet leaves the muzzle. Few people shoot anything that's an inch from the muzzle, so it's useful to compare down-range velocity and energy. Some ammo companies publish this information, and some don't.
I did some rough investigations using a combination of on-line ballistic calculators. Hornady has a pretty good one. To get +/- 1100 ft-lbs out of a .45 projectile, the 225-gr bullet needs about 1500 fps and the 360-gr bullet needs about 1200 fps. Usibng those parameters, and an assumed ballistic coefficient of 0.150, I calculated the down-range energy for both in 50-yard increments, out to 200 yards. The chart below (which I'll format as well as I can) is for energy:
Distance ... 225-gr ... 360-gr
-----------------------------
Muzzle . . . 1124 . . . . 1151
50 yards . . 860 . . . . . 936
100 yards . . 676 . . . . 800
150 yards . . 558 . . . . 706
200 yards . . 482 . . . . 633
You can see that the heavier bullet retains more enegy down-range than the lighter bullet. (Disclaimer -- this is an approximation -- the two bullets would not actually have the same ballistic coefficient.)
I did some rough investigations using a combination of on-line ballistic calculators. Hornady has a pretty good one. To get +/- 1100 ft-lbs out of a .45 projectile, the 225-gr bullet needs about 1500 fps and the 360-gr bullet needs about 1200 fps. Usibng those parameters, and an assumed ballistic coefficient of 0.150, I calculated the down-range energy for both in 50-yard increments, out to 200 yards. The chart below (which I'll format as well as I can) is for energy:
Distance ... 225-gr ... 360-gr
-----------------------------
Muzzle . . . 1124 . . . . 1151
50 yards . . 860 . . . . . 936
100 yards . . 676 . . . . 800
150 yards . . 558 . . . . 706
200 yards . . 482 . . . . 633
You can see that the heavier bullet retains more enegy down-range than the lighter bullet. (Disclaimer -- this is an approximation -- the two bullets would not actually have the same ballistic coefficient.)
That definitely details how much the velocity affects the energy-- but it would seem to be more valuable to us in practical terms when discussing rifle rather than handgun, simply because (typically) we would be talking normal handgun distance.
And ultimately, if we were talking bear defense, we'd be talking <50 yards. Not that I know anything about sharing the landscape with an angry bear, lol.
But it definitely shows quite plainly how energy is mostly a calculated output that hinges greatly on velocity.
And ultimately, if we were talking bear defense, we'd be talking <50 yards. Not that I know anything about sharing the landscape with an angry bear, lol.
But it definitely shows quite plainly how energy is mostly a calculated output that hinges greatly on velocity.
I have fired 100 rounds of 357 grain cast bullets from Hunters Supply using 19 grains of H110 from my Ruger Blackhawk 4 5/8". According to the Hodgdon web site, 18 grains yields around 1000+ fps and 20,000cups while 21 grains yields 1100+ fps and 28,000 cups. It will penetrate 3 1/2" in a green oak log. I wonder if a smaller bullet of similar design and muzzle energy would do the same? Would recoil of the gun be identical? By the way, the recoil of this load is not harsh in my opinion. Aquila Blanca, great information on down range energy. I would think that the best scenario would be a load that would maintain energy down range while producing as little gun recoil as possible.
motorhead0922
New member
AL45, in your example, the 360 grain bullet has everything going for it: more weight and more energy. It takes more propellant to make that happen.
What is usually the case is that, for a given propellant load, a lighter bullet will have greater velocity and more energy, even at impact, than a heavier bullet if the distance is not too far, as those above have stated. In order for that extra energy to do any good, however, the bullet must not exit the animal's (or attacker's) body. This means that the body absorbed all of that energy and had to sustain more damage. Whether that damage stops the animal depends on exactly what the bullet struck.
An example:
45 ACP +P, 185 grain, 1150 ft/sec, 543 ft-lbs, versus
45 ACP +P, 230 grain, 950 ft/sec, 461 ft-lbs.
If both bullets mushroom correctly and do not exit the body, the 185 grain bullet will do more damage by delivering an extra 82 ft-lbs of energy.
What is usually the case is that, for a given propellant load, a lighter bullet will have greater velocity and more energy, even at impact, than a heavier bullet if the distance is not too far, as those above have stated. In order for that extra energy to do any good, however, the bullet must not exit the animal's (or attacker's) body. This means that the body absorbed all of that energy and had to sustain more damage. Whether that damage stops the animal depends on exactly what the bullet struck.
An example:
45 ACP +P, 185 grain, 1150 ft/sec, 543 ft-lbs, versus
45 ACP +P, 230 grain, 950 ft/sec, 461 ft-lbs.
If both bullets mushroom correctly and do not exit the body, the 185 grain bullet will do more damage by delivering an extra 82 ft-lbs of energy.
Consider this quote about penetration of arrows which, at handgun velocities, applies equally to moving bullets:
http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/Momentum Kinetic Energy and Arrow Penetration.htm
Interesting read. I won't spoil all its conclusions but it supports the general theory of heavier is better if two projectiles have the same profile (higher sectional density) and have the same kinetic energy on impact. I highly recommend it.
http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/Momentum Kinetic Energy and Arrow Penetration.htm
Interesting read. I won't spoil all its conclusions but it supports the general theory of heavier is better if two projectiles have the same profile (higher sectional density) and have the same kinetic energy on impact. I highly recommend it.
RaySendero
New member
YES - Either one has the potential energy to really ____-off a charging Griz.
YES again - It's best not to get close enough to a Griz to field test theories regarding muzzle energy.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
In his example both loads produced the same muzzle energy. The figures I used were derived from trying to replicate the 1100 ft-lbs energy criterion. As the figures show (taken from the Hornady on-line calculator -- thank you, Steve Hornady), the velocity required to drive the different bullets to (approximately) the same muzzle energy level is quite different.motorhead0922 said:
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