Is it true that the old 10mm guns couldn't stand shooting much of the high power loads
- Thread starter clintpup
- Start date
I have 3 different gen 3 s&w 10mm's and both varieties of glock 10mm's, my 20 being a gen 2 first year production, and it shows no signs of premature wear.
The S&W 10mm's are absolute beasts.
Know little to nothing about Colt 10mm's.
And my 610 eats everything I put through it too.
The S&W 10mm's are absolute beasts.
Know little to nothing about Colt 10mm's.
And my 610 eats everything I put through it too.
disseminator
New member
The older Delta Elite were the ones that had issues with the full power loads.
I believe the newer model has fixed that but maybe somebody who owns one can speak to that.
I believe the newer model has fixed that but maybe somebody who owns one can speak to that.
The early Delta Elite guns had a frame rail that traveled over the slide stop hole just as .45cal 1911's tend to do and Delta's were known for cracking in this blatantly obvious weak spot. Colt's answer to this problem was to remove that short, frail section so nothing was there to crack. This was a decent solution.
As far as I know, none of the Delta Elite pistols including the one I had circa 2012 or so ever had great case head support in their barrel, which is also MUCH needed in a proper, full-nuts 10mm pistol.
The Delta Elite has a fantastic spot in history and are beautiful guns but most would never include them in a list of the toughest 10mm guns ever built.
As far as I know, none of the Delta Elite pistols including the one I had circa 2012 or so ever had great case head support in their barrel, which is also MUCH needed in a proper, full-nuts 10mm pistol.
The Delta Elite has a fantastic spot in history and are beautiful guns but most would never include them in a list of the toughest 10mm guns ever built.
Clintpup, I've only heard something similar about the Colt Delta, and Tom Dornaus told me of some cracking issues with The Bren Ten. Also read that the Witness guns with the lighter slide had some cracking issues. I owned an early Bren Ten, but never put enough ammo through mine to experience any durability issue. Had a Delta too. Never broke anything on the Delta but always felt like the "real" 10MM round was a bit much for it. Was so concerned about lack of case head support in my Delta that I sent the gun to Bar-Sto for installation of one of their early fully ramped barrels. Another shooter told me his Delta cracked on top of the slide from the ejection port/locking lug area forward. Said Colt replaced the pistol, which he sold without ever firing. I have no experience with any of the Witness guns. I can say that I've owned a succession of the S&W 10MM autos, which should qualify as older model 10MMs. The S&W 1076s, 1006s and 1026s, used with mostly Norma and Buffalo Bore level loads, that I've owned and operated have proven to be bullet proof, with no reliability or durability issues whatsoever. BTW, I consider the S&W Model 610 revolvers I've owned to be the finest, and definitely most accurate 10MMs, I've ever owned.........ymmv
lifesizepotato
New member
Bren Tens tended to have poor metallurgy and could develop cracks over time, which may contribute to what you've heard.
I'd say it's the new Delta Elites that might have problems.
During the gun's development, thirty years ago, there were problems with cracked frames, and that's why all new Colts - new, as in, made in the last thirty years - have the slide rail cut out above the slide stop window.
The change was made before any Deltas were sold, so any time you hear about Deltas with cracked frames, it's someone's memory of an old gunrag article being repeated for thirty years.
Of greater concern is reports of the barrels on newer Deltas - since the gun's reintroduction about eight years ago - being over-cut at the chamber entrance, resulting in insufficient case support.
I've seen some pics on 1911forum of a blown case head, and reports of bulged cases when firing hot loads.
Pictures that I've seen showed a barrel throat cut from 10:00 - 2:00, while my 1st-gen gun is 9:00 - 3:00, leaving less unsupported brass.
Another concern is the belief that "hot loads" start at 1200fps.
The 10mm cartridge was intended to replace .45 ACP as a service round, not challenge the .41 Mag. for supremacy in the "what is that for?" derby.
The original Norma loads were very hot, hotter than intended, at 1200fps, but boutique ammo makers are today sometimes loading to 1300fps, or even a bit more, with 200 grain bullets.
If the Delta won't handle those, it's because it was never intended to.
I have a circa 1988 Delta, and while I haven't shot a lot of full-power loads through it, maybe a few hundred, I've never seen a bulged case. How it would hold up to lots of heavy loads, I don't know?
99% of what I shoot at can be penetrated with a BB gun, and can't tell the difference between 1200fps and 1100fps, so I shoot the latter.
Even fans of the Bren Ten suggest that they should not be shot, due to the possibility of invisible casting flaws in the slide and frame resulting in cracks. Some owners have the parts magnafluxed or otherwise inspected, and then do limited shooting.
During the gun's development, thirty years ago, there were problems with cracked frames, and that's why all new Colts - new, as in, made in the last thirty years - have the slide rail cut out above the slide stop window.
The change was made before any Deltas were sold, so any time you hear about Deltas with cracked frames, it's someone's memory of an old gunrag article being repeated for thirty years.
Of greater concern is reports of the barrels on newer Deltas - since the gun's reintroduction about eight years ago - being over-cut at the chamber entrance, resulting in insufficient case support.
I've seen some pics on 1911forum of a blown case head, and reports of bulged cases when firing hot loads.
Pictures that I've seen showed a barrel throat cut from 10:00 - 2:00, while my 1st-gen gun is 9:00 - 3:00, leaving less unsupported brass.
Another concern is the belief that "hot loads" start at 1200fps.
The 10mm cartridge was intended to replace .45 ACP as a service round, not challenge the .41 Mag. for supremacy in the "what is that for?" derby.
The original Norma loads were very hot, hotter than intended, at 1200fps, but boutique ammo makers are today sometimes loading to 1300fps, or even a bit more, with 200 grain bullets.
If the Delta won't handle those, it's because it was never intended to.
I have a circa 1988 Delta, and while I haven't shot a lot of full-power loads through it, maybe a few hundred, I've never seen a bulged case. How it would hold up to lots of heavy loads, I don't know?
99% of what I shoot at can be penetrated with a BB gun, and can't tell the difference between 1200fps and 1100fps, so I shoot the latter.
Even fans of the Bren Ten suggest that they should not be shot, due to the possibility of invisible casting flaws in the slide and frame resulting in cracks. Some owners have the parts magnafluxed or otherwise inspected, and then do limited shooting.
The only two 10mm pistols that have proven to me that they can handle the round long term are the Glocks and now discontinued S&W 1006 series. And of course the S&W revolvers.
I think the 1911's are doing a better job than early guns, but If I were interested in a new 10mm the Glock is the only one I'd consider. Someday I'm going to find a deal on a Smith at the same time I have the money. I've had one or the other a few times, but not at the same time.
I think the 1911's are doing a better job than early guns, but If I were interested in a new 10mm the Glock is the only one I'd consider. Someday I'm going to find a deal on a Smith at the same time I have the money. I've had one or the other a few times, but not at the same time.
I can't speak for others but my G29 recoil springs were too weak for the full house loads. I replaced mine with a 21# non-captive set (stock was 17#) and it made it a whole lot better. Handled the 40sw like a dream.
I suspect the others could be in the same boat as I found out the new spring was rather stiff for loading manually.
I suspect the others could be in the same boat as I found out the new spring was rather stiff for loading manually.
FrankenMauser
New member
I don't know about the market, as a whole, but my father bought a Gen 1 G20 as soon as they were available.
It never saw anything but "full power" loads (factory or handloaded), and was always a family favorite. It saw thousands of rounds and never had issues.
The only reason I speak of it in past-tense, is because my father decided it was too big to conceal, wanted something smaller and lighter, and was blown away when he saw what his 8 spare magazines were worth during the Clinton ban. (The magazines, alone, were worth twice as much as the pistol. The good old days of profiting off of political stupidity...)
It never saw anything but "full power" loads (factory or handloaded), and was always a family favorite. It saw thousands of rounds and never had issues.
The only reason I speak of it in past-tense, is because my father decided it was too big to conceal, wanted something smaller and lighter, and was blown away when he saw what his 8 spare magazines were worth during the Clinton ban. (The magazines, alone, were worth twice as much as the pistol. The good old days of profiting off of political stupidity...)
They were going for over $75 if I remember, picked them up there for around $25.FrankenMauser
New member
By "Gen I" I was referring to an initial production pistol, before they changed the guide rod. (I think it was the guide rod... I'm not a Glock guy. Could be wrong.)
Must have been one of the (pre-internet) regional market differences that we discuss occasionally.
If I remember correctly, my father got $140 apiece for his magazines, and the gun shop priced them at $180 each.
Timing may have also been a factor. I believe he unloaded the G20 and ancillaries in mid-1998, when demand for 15-rounders was still high, but the supply was extremely limited (at least in Utah).
Eight spare magazines, the G20, 1,000+ pieces of brass, several thousand bullets, 600+ rounds of loaded ammo, reloading dies, holsters, mag pouch... He made out like a bandit.
Living the good life.
Must have been one of the (pre-internet) regional market differences that we discuss occasionally.
If I remember correctly, my father got $140 apiece for his magazines, and the gun shop priced them at $180 each.
Timing may have also been a factor. I believe he unloaded the G20 and ancillaries in mid-1998, when demand for 15-rounders was still high, but the supply was extremely limited (at least in Utah).
Eight spare magazines, the G20, 1,000+ pieces of brass, several thousand bullets, 600+ rounds of loaded ammo, reloading dies, holsters, mag pouch... He made out like a bandit.