Is it legal?

D

David Bachelder

New member
I live in Texas. I do not have any type of firearm permit or licence. My friend lives in Nevada, as far as I know he does not have any sort of firearms permit or license either.

I have his 12 gauge shotgun and would like to return it to him. Is it legal for me to package it up and send it to him USPS Priority Mail? The firearm only, no ammo, just the shotgun.

Would it need to be labeled as a Firearm on the box?
 
Firearms across state lines gets tricky.

I agree that it's legal for you to return it directly to him since it's a loan, not a transfer of ownership. If it were actually a transfer of ownership across state lines, legally, an FFL would have to be involved. BUT!!! (There's almost always a "but".)

HOWEVER, shipping it directly to him may be problematic. I don't believe you can ship it to him across state lines because there are laws about who a non-license holder can ship to without involving an FFL. A non-license holder can't ship across state lines to another non-license holder and I'm not aware of an exception in those laws for a non-license holder returning a loaned firearm.

For what it's worth, it's not legal to label the outside of a shipping box to indicate that it contains a firearm.
 
it's my understanding that it's legal to interstate ship a firearm to either a licensee (and FFL or a C&R, as appropriate) or to yourself. So a trick I've read about, which makes sense, is to ship it to yourself at his address, and just let him know it's coming. You might put in the address line your name, then "c/o" his name, etc.

Firearms must be unloaded and not shipped with ammo, but do not need to be marked in any special way.
 
mes227,

May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?
Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.
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http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#shipping-firearms-additional

BATF would probably quibble about the legality of sending your friend's firearm interstate to yourself, having your friend open the package and take possession of the firearm.
 
That's playing a dangerous game, in my opinion.

If you're going to say that the addressee can open it because he's the owner then you have to also admit that the shipper can't ship it to himself in the other state because he's NOT the owner.

If a person were to get caught, it would be hard to explain why he was trying to interpret the same law two different ways at the same time.
 
David Bachelder I live in Texas....My friend lives in Nevada...
I have his 12 gauge shotgun and would like to return it to him. Is it legal for me to package it up and send it to him USPS Priority Mail? The firearm only, no ammo, just the shotgun.
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No. Federal law REQUIRES that you ship it to a licensed dealer in Nevada who will transfer the firearm to your friend. it does not matter who the gun beelongs to. If you ship it directly to him you both are commiting a Federal crime.


Would it need to be labeled as a Firearm on the box?
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Federal law prohibits marking a box to indicate a firearm is inside. You can however write "Expensive item inside: STEAL ME!" it will have the same effect.:D

zoomie Yes.
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No.
Never.
Ever.
Unless you want to never be able to possess firearms again.
Your quote from the ATF FAQ's has nothing to do with shipping firearms.:rolleyes:

JohnKSa I agree that it's legal for you to return it directly to him since it's a loan, not a transfer of ownership.
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Absolutely, 100% wrong. Loan has nothing to do it. It's an interstate shipment of a firearm. With the exceptions of a repaired or replaced firearm being returned to the owner by the manufacturer and the owner PERSONALLY shipping a gun to HIMSELF, ALL interstate shipments of firearms must be shipped to a licensed dealer.

mes227 ....So a trick I've read about, which makes sense, is to ship it to yourself at his address, and just let him know it's coming.
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Whoever recommended that "trick" is an idiot. It's a FELONY. Federal law permits someone to ship a gun to HIMSELF. Doing what you recommend makes both the sender and recepient in violation of Federal law.
 
If you mail that firearm to yourself in Nevada, you better hustle on out there and be there to open the package. Anything else is clearly illegal.
 
Okay. I give up. Where does it say all that in the Second Amendment?

Yeah, yeah. I know: there are all kinds of federal regulations pertaining to this, that, and umpty dozen other things people do with firearms. That still doesn't answer my question.
 
Absolutely, 100% wrong. Loan has nothing to do it. It's an interstate shipment of a firearm.
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You are correct. I pointed out in the next paragraph that while the return was legal, the shipping was not. ;)
Okay. I give up. Where does it say all that in the Second Amendment?
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You're welcome to try that defense in court. It might even work although I wouldn't bet on it. Either way, it won't be fast and it won't be cheap.

It's important not to confuse what's "legal" (the focus of this thread) with what's constitutional and even more important not to let one's lofty ideals muddy the water when the goal is merely staying out of jail.
 
And what is wrong with just shipping it through the FFL?
It isn't that painful, in fact it will be a relief to know you didn't put yourself or another into jeopardy.
I do know myself that I wouldn't necessarily want an old family heirloom that predated any kind of regulations to go through an FFL, but that is just an emotional feeling that gives homage to the generation(s) past that said heirloom memorializes.
 
If'n we were to get technical, given that the two protagonists are in different states, it's probable that the original loan itself isn't (wasn't) legal under Federal law. The Feds allow for "temporary" loans of firearms for "lawful sporting purposes." The law doesn't define the length of time, but I'd expect that the BATFE's idea of "temporary" is pretty short-term. And the BATFE's idea of what constitutes a lawful sporting purpose is extremely limited.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]
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Seems to me that there's a difference between the word "transfer" and the word "ship"

One could argue in the present case that a transfer is not taking place insofar as returning a firearm to its rightful owner is not a transfer of ownership.
 
musher Seems to me that there's a difference between the word "transfer" and the word "ship"

One could argue in the present case that a transfer is not taking place insofar as returning a firearm to its rightful owner is not a transfer of ownership.
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And one would be wrong.;)

Ownership is not transferred, POSSESSION is transferred. Federal law regulates how firearms are transferred in interstate commerce. They do not care who "owns" or doesn't own the firearm.

You can buy a gun from someone out of state and have it shipped to a dealer in your state for TRANSFER. If the buyer gets denied on his FBI NICS check he still owns the firearm but cannot take possession.
 
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