Is Indiana's CCW permit system unconstitutional?

JimDandy

New member
It's primarily an intellectual exercise to better understand the mechanics and P and/or I clause(s) as they apply, because Indiana currently has blanket recognition of any and every other State's permit.

The statutes are here.

What caught my eye was:

The Government of the State of Indiana said:
(f) The superintendent may not issue a lifetime qualified license or a lifetime unlimited license to a person
who is a resident of another state. The superintendent may issue a four (4) year qualified license or a four (4)
year unlimited license to a person who is a resident of another state and who has a regular place of business
or employment in Indiana as described in section 3(a)(3) of this chapter.

In Baldwin v. Fish & Game Comm'n of Montana - 436 U.S. 371 (1978) Montana was upheld in charging more for an out of state Elk tag.

THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF MONTANA said:
1. Access by nonresidents to recreational big game hunting in Montana does not fall within the category of rights protected by the Privileges and Immunities Clause. Only with respect to those "privileges" and "immunities" bearing upon the vitality of the Nation as a single entity must a State treat all citizens, resident and nonresident, equally, and here equality in access to Montana elk is not basic to the maintenance or wellbeing of the Union. Pp. 436 U. S. 378-388.

I believe the Court has established the right to keep and bear arms IS a privilege and immunity bearing upon the vitality of the Nation.

THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF MONTANA said:
2. The statutory scheme is an economic means not unreasonably related to the preservation of a finite resource, elk, and a substantial regulatory interest of that State, and hence does not violate the Equal Protection Clause. In view of the fact that residents contribute to the costs of maintaining the elk hunting program, the great increase in nonresident hunters in recent years, the limit in the elk supply, and the difficulties in supervising hunting practices, it cannot be said that either the license fee differentials or the required combination license for nonresidents is irrational. Pp. 436 U. S. 388-391.

I don't believe Carry permits may be used as an instrument of revenue- feel free to correct me if I am wrong- however I do stipulate that in a hypothetical world where unlicensed open carry is legal, the license for concealed carry might be legally used as a revenue generating device. I question whether that revenue generation may be used with two standards as regards to citizenship.

I also don't believe the justifications making the Elk licensing scheme rational would apply to a concealed carry permit.
 
OK. There are two different P&I arguments.

Let's take it from the top.

The 14A of 1868 (dates are important here, pay attention) says "no state shall abridge the privileges or immunities of US citizenship".

In 1870 this comes up at the US Supremes for the first time, in Ward v. Maryland. A guy name of Ward is a merchant from a Northern state (New Jersey I think) who wants to sell stuff in MD without paying that state's mandated extra taxes for out-of-state merchants. The court says basically "MD is wrong because this law impacts Mr. Ward's civil rights to both travel and engage in commerce - MD has to treat Ward equally with MD residents".

1872 the issue comes up again, in the Slaughter-house Cases which is basically about corruption: the city of New Orleans is promoting richer businesses over poorer ones (who have less of what we would today call "lobbying money" to kick around). An argument is made (which I'll get into later) for a "broader reading of the PorI clause". It gets shot down. Citing Ward specifically, the Slaughter-House court says that the PorI clause of the 14th ONLY protects against cross-border discrimination.

1999: the US Supremes in Saenz v. Roe do another case very much like Ward and come to the same conclusion: the PorI clause of the 14th protects against cross-border discrimination - in this case, people coming to California are given less in welfare payments than a longer-term California resident.

So. What JimDandy is talking about is using the NARROW view of the PorI 14A clause to shoot down an aspect of cross-border discrimination. This is the same thing Gray Peterson is trying in the Colorado CCW discrimination case - CO will not recognize Gray's UT permit (even though they normally do!) because CO knows that Gray is a WA state resident and CO wants to punish WA state for not recognizing a CO permit. Yes, really. It's cross-border discrimination.

The Broader View Of The PorI Clause That Hasn't Worked Yet

Speedrrracer and Aguila Blanca are referring to a broader view of the PorI clause that Alan Gura tried to push for in the McDonald case. Under this view there's a LOT of "priviledges and immunities of US citizenship" that are supposed to get protected by the 14th Amendment. This view is found in several places...Justice Hugo Black spoke this way in his famous dissent in Adamson in 1947:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Adamson_v._California/Dissent_Black

Justice Clarence Thomas said the same thing in a concurring dissent in Saenz v. Roe:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=526&page=489

The best presentation for a broader reading of the 14A PorI clause is a book by Liberal-as-heck Yale law professor Akhil Reed Amar:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Bill-Rights-Creation-Reconstruction/dp/0300082770

Amar makes the case that the primary author of the 14th (Ohio legislator John Bingham) was trying to overturn the Dred Scott case by using the language of that court (which ruled that racist laws were OK in the US, in 1856) by turning that court's language against them. This is one chunk of Dred Scott everybody points to who are on Hugo Black's side of this:

For if they [blacks, free or slave] were so received, and entitled to the privileges and immunities of citizens, it would exempt them from the operation of the special laws and from the police regulations which they considered to be necessary for their own safety. It would give to persons of the negro race, who were recognised as citizens in any one State of the Union, the right to enter every other State whenever they pleased, singly or in companies, without pass or passport, and without obstruction, to sojourn there as long as they pleased, to go where they pleased at every hour of the day or night without molestation, unless they committed some violation of law for which a white man would be punished; and it would give them the full liberty of speech in public and in private upon all subjects upon which its own citizens might speak; to hold public meetings upon political affairs, and to keep and carry arms wherever they went. And all of this would be done in the face of the subject race of the same color, both free and slaves, and inevitably producing discontent and insubordination among them, and endangering the peace and safety of the State.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=60&invol=393 - the case text shows that the main thrust of the decision of 1856 (that helped trigger the Civil War) was that racism was OK, not just slavery. And that in turn is why the 14th Amendment was needed post-Civil-War.

The Dred Scott case used the term "privileges or immunities of US citizenship" over 30 times while defining this as something blacks didn't have...the passage above is the most detailed. As Amar, Thomas and Black all argued, John Bingham was trying to overturn the Dred Scott decision by using their own term: "privileges and/or immunities of US citizenship". In the years since the US Supreme Court has consistently pretended not to know what the phrase "privileges or immunities" as used in the 14A means...it is the worst, most blatant and by far the longest running fraud the US court system ever perpetrated.

Note that the civil rights listed in Dred Scott are not just what's found in the BoR: we also have a "right to free travel without pass or passport" and God knows what else. In fact, a right to marry might well be found to be a "privilege or immunity of US citizenship" - and if that happens, the gay marriage debate would come to an end in favor of the gays!

And that, most likely, is why the NRA (on behalf of the GOP!) argued against this broader view of the PorI clause (at the McDonald hearing, summer of 2010) and wanted it to remain narrowly restricted to a ban on cross-border discrimination by states in line with Ward and Saenz.

So. JimDandy is on the right track here, asking about using the narrow view of the PorI clause that the US Supremes bothered to leave us in 1870 and 1999.

Another place this should kick in hard: California recognizes no out of state permits and will not issue a permit to a non-resident. Only California residents have any access to legal CCW, as meager as that is in most counties. I'm now a resident of Alabama...I'm completely hosed if I go to Cali.
 
I believe the Court has established the right to keep and bear arms IS a privilege and immunity bearing upon the vitality of the Nation.

Jim's post is a superb summary of where we stand on PorI. In short, it's pretty much a dead letter. One aspect of the 2A (ownership of a pistol in the home) was incorporated under the Due Process clause.

While McDonald would have provided a good opportunity for the Court to revisit the PorI clause, they showed hostility to that approach during oral arguments.

Now, does recreational hunting fall under the same protection as owning a pistol? That's where we might be on shaky ground. In US v. Skoien, a man convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence contested the constitutionality of of the Lautenberg amendment when he was busted with a hunting rifle.

Skoien admitted he had gone deer hunting that morning and used the shotgun to kill a deer. He argued below and maintains here that prosecuting him under § 922(g)(9) for possessing the shotgun violates his Second Amendment right to bear arms for hunting. He has not, however, asserted a right to possess the gun for self-defense. As such, the government’s application of § 922(g)(9) in this case requires less rigorous justification than strict scrutiny because the core right of self-defense identified in Heller is not implicated.

Notice the dichotomy between "aspects" of the RKBA here. At the moment, there is no recognized right to carry; there is only recognition for the right to own a handgun in the home.
 
Hunting is not covered. If you look at Baldwin v. Fish & Game Comm'n of Montana - 436 U.S. 371 (1978) They shot down a P Or I claim on charging out-of-state hunters with a different scheme because the State had a rational basis for maintaining the State's supply or some such was the basics.

A couple of the things I go round and round on, there's P AND I and P OR I. They are located in different places in the Constitution, have different wording, and different case law.

As I understand it, the 14th Amendment has P OR I, and did not specifically repeal/rewrite/replace the Article 4 P AND I. Is this correct?

What I don't understand and go round and round in my head on, is if that IS correct, why aren't people trying to use Article 4, and Justice Bushrod's opinion in Corfield v Coryell. If you can make that case, I can see that doing far more than opening a crack in the wall, it would kick the door down. Washington enumerates many Privileges and Immunities specifically in his opinion that would tear the heart out of state assault weapons bans, magazine bans, and so on. His opinion covered both interstate travel, and interstate commerce.

I'm not suggesting his opinion says I can drive to California and visit using Washington State laws, however, I do believe his opinion says I can buy my AR-15 and 30 round mags in Washington, where I live, and drive down the coast with them to go shooting at XYZ Shooting Range and Bait shop, because according to Bushrod, Interstate commerce is protected by both the Interstate Commerce clause AND Article 4, and According to United States v. Miller - 307 U.S. 174 (1939) the mere act of taking a firearm across state lines is enough to engage in Interstate Commerce.
 
Tom Servo said:
At the moment, there is no recognized right to carry; there is only recognition for the right to own a handgun in the home.

Many would disagree with you, after reading Heller. Or are you trying to say something more along the lines of, "The antis acknowledge only the right to own a handgun in the home" ?

JimDandy said:
...according to Bushrod, Interstate commerce is protected by both the Interstate Commerce clause AND Article 4, and According to United States v. Miller - 307 U.S. 174 (1939) the mere act of taking a firearm across state lines is enough to engage in Interstate Commerce.

Bob Levy argues that US v Lopez makes it clear that mere possession of a gun is beyond the power of the Commerce clause:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv7Iz1umtok#t=508 (start at around 8:15)

I is puzzled
 
Let me be clear about something: my personal decision is to let this issue of cross-border carry discrimination (in various forms as seen in Indiana, California, Colorado and elsewhere) simmer until we get a "carry rights decision" out of the US Supreme Court.

I think we'll get one soon, summer of 2014 very likely - Woolard in MD is a strong possibility. And we have such right now active and effective in the 7th Circuit, and we're waiting on decisions in what, two or three cases out of the 9th Circuit?

Once a "right to carry" is established in any circuit such as the 7th, or nationally via the US Supreme Court, any such "carry right" is immediately turned into something that states have to honor in light of Ward v. Maryland and Saenz v. Roe. It would be impossible to argue that an enumerated aspect of the Bill Of Rights, established as a personal civil right and incorporated, is something a state can still discriminate on with regards out-of-state visitors or recent move-ins from other US states.

So...I guess I'm also saying that while I support Gray Peterson's lawsuit in CO, it can be argued that it was premature. He should have waited first for a federal-level carry right, established either by CO's federal circuit or the US Supreme Court.
 
I have a complex answer that breaks down to a very simple answer. Or, it might be a simple answer that gets very complex, I'm not sure.:D

I don't believe that P&I or any other Federal Constitutional principle applies to state level gun laws. I despise Incorporation, particularly in it's current, tortured, illogical, indefensible by any ordinary interpretation of grammar/context/hermeneutics, application.

The states have their own Constitutions. They are the place where state level laws should be fought. Why bother with state constitutions if the Federal one applies to the states? Seems a bit redundant, yes?

I fully recognize that my opinion is not in line with the reality of the current legal system but things that are can be changed to things that should be. After all, they once were as they should be and were changed to what they shouldn't be.
 
Well Brian, to which I would ask you-

Is the Federal Court not the trump card?

When reading the 9th and 10th amendment, if something is established as a federally secured right, thus putting the power to protect and defend that right for the citizenry in the hands of the Federal, not State, government(s), Doesn't that lead to the natural conclusion that federal case law protecting that right must be applied to the States?
 
Many would disagree with you, after reading Heller
Oh, it's implied in Heller, but that was not what the Court was asked to find in their opinion. The ruling was that the 2A protects the right to own a gun, and that Washington DC's restrictions were unconstitutional. Full stop.
 
Brian Pfleuger said:
I don't believe that P&I or any other Federal Constitutional principle applies to state level gun laws. I despise Incorporation, particularly in it's current, tortured, illogical, indefensible by any ordinary interpretation of grammar/context/hermeneutics, application.

The states have their own Constitutions. They are the place where state level laws should be fought. Why bother with state constitutions if the Federal one applies to the states? Seems a bit redundant, yes?

If no Constitutional principle lords over State's rights, then we still have slavery in the South, and we have complete gun bans + confiscation in the lefty states.
 
But that's basically a circular question. You're pretty much asking "If I apply this principle against the states, doesn't it mean that the principle applies against the states?

Well, yes, it you apply it to the states, it applies to the states. That's different than "Should it?"

Even if it did, would not the fact that the law violates the state constitution be the first hurdle?

I guess it's a simple answer that gets complex and it's hard for me to answer under the current application/acceptability of laws. Currently, it's a little bit like trying to ask me if they'd rather get hit by a Mack truck or a Buick station wagon. Yeah, you could argue that the Buick would be "better" but they both suck.
 
If no Constitutional principle lords over State's rights, then we still have slavery in the South, and we have complete gun bans + confiscation in the lefty states.

No, you wouldn't.

Read the Constitution of South Carolina, for an example. Tell me how you would justify slavery in that state? The others are similar.

South Carolina Constitution:
SECTION 3. Privileges and immunities; due process; equal protection of laws.

The privileges and immunities of citizens of this State and of the United States under this Constitution shall not be abridged, nor shall any person be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law, nor shall any person be denied the equal protection of the laws. (1970 (56) 2684; 1971 (57) 315.)

Oh, and if you DID need to make use of legal "force" to require states to uphold basic civil rights, it would be done by federal law, not by applying the COTUS to the states.
 
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Brian...seriously?

Look at your own quote. You're citing the 1970/1971 version of the SC Constitution.

Care to guess what the 1861 version said? Really?

For that matter, look up the Confederate constitution. Looked more or less exactly like ours except for an extra bit about "slavery forever".

In 1858 South Carolina passed a law that called for the death penalty against any preacher who spoke against slavery from the pulpit.

In 1868 the 14th Amendment was supposed to do away with obvious civil rights violations of that sort, by applying (yes, "incorporating") the First Amendment to the states. In 1876 the US Supreme Court said that the federal government could not punish civil rights violations. That in turn led to this (WARNING: NOT FOR THE FAINT HEARTED):

http://withoutsanctuary.org/main.html

Over 4,000 lynchings, uncounted other civil rights violations.

In the 20th century the US Supremes realized they'd messed up, probably connected to the 1907 Shipp trial which told them in graphic deadly detail just how bad state-level "justice" systems had become:

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/shipp.html

That remains the only criminal trial the US Supreme Court ever decided directly.

They rebuilt "incorporation" piece at a time, slowly, a bit cockeyed but at least something over the next 100 years. I disagree with how they did it, and I don't think they've gone far enough (pieces of the BoR remain annoyingly unincorporated) but it's at least been progress.

If you speak against ALL incorporation, I have to assume you're a stone-cold racist or significantly ignorant of history.

May I ask which it is?
 
Indiana's law isn't a major concern here. Non-residents can use ANY permit in Indiana.
The big ones would of course be CA and NY, who won't issue to non-residents.
However, a win in a carry case wouldn't mean your permit is now good nationwide, it'll just mean that NY and CA will either have to issue permits, or the alternative WOULD be reciprocity. The former is more likely than the latter.
 
Jim March said:
Brian...seriously?

As I said. The issues could be addressed by federal LAW not by applying the COTUS to the states. The issue is not whether or not something could be done. It's what is the RIGHT "something".

Laws from 200 years ago aren't really relevant, are they? The SCOTUS upheld slavery too. Doesn't make it right or relevant to modern law.

Slavery could have been, should have been, ended by federal statute not by applying the COTUS to the states.

Bearing arms, the topic of this thread, should be enforced against the states, if neccesary, by federal LAW, not by enforcing the COTUS against states that already have a constitution. Otherwise, why not just abolish the state constitutions? What purpose do they serve if the COTUS applies against the states?

In any case, it's almost never necessary. Most, if not all states have either constitutional provision for bearing arms or, such as NY, it's written into their Civil Rights laws.

I also believe that the more fundamental problem is literally a matter of fundamentals. The "right to keep and bear arms" is literally not fundamental enough as a principle. The concept aught to be the right to keep, carry, do and act in any fashion that doesn't directly impede someone else's rights. Guns aren't really the point, after all. FREEDOM is the point. The government, state or federal, really should have no right to take a Minority Report stance on our behavior. ACTIONS should be punished, not theoretical, ethereal dangers.
 
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As I said. The issues could be addressed by federal LAW not by applying the COTUS to the states.

Incorporation isn't applying "the COTUS" against the States. It's the COTUS determining if it's Constitutional for the Federal Law to apply against the States. It's almost required by the Ninth and Tenth Amendments to do it this way.
 
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