Is Congress "linguistically handicapped" or is there something else in play?

alan

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Supreme Court to consider whether a felon in Japan is a felon in U.S.
Westmoreland County man appeals conviction for possessing a firearm
Thursday, November 04, 2004

By Michael McGough, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

WASHINGTON -- A lawyer for a Westmoreland County man told the U.S. Supreme Court yesterday that his client's conviction for unlawful possession of a firearm should be set aside because the felony conviction that disqualified him from buying a gun took place in a Japanese court.

Several justices reacted sympathetically to the claim by Pittsburgh attorney Paul D. Boas that when Congress outlawed possession of a gun by individuals "convicted in any court" of a serious crime, it had in mind only American courts -- an intention Boas said could be gleaned by references elsewhere in the law and in predecessor statutes to federal or state convictions.

In 2002, Boas' client, former Edgewood police officer Gary Sherwood Small, pleaded guilty on a conditional basis to being a felon in possession of a firearm. Small had been indicted because of his 1998 purchase of a 9 mm handgun.

Small had answered "no" on a federal form asking if he had ever been convicted "in any court" of a crime punishable by more than a year in prison. In fact, Small had been convicted in 1994 in Okinawa, Japan, of smuggling guns into that country inside a water heater shipped from Pittsburgh, and was sentenced to five years in prison and 18 months of parole.

In offering a conditional guilty plea to the U.S. charge, Small reserved the right to challenge the federal law under which he was indicted.

In 2003, the Philadelphia-based 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled against Small, holding that "foreign convictions generally can count as predicate offenses" under the law barring the possession of firearms by felons.

Small got a more sympathetic hearing yesterday from several members of the Supreme Court.

"I think you make a strong argument that Congress didn't think about this problem," Justice John Paul Stevens told Boas.

When Patricia A. Millett, a lawyer in the U.S. solicitor general's office, argued that "any court" included foreign tribunals, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg countered that "we learned in law school that one country can't enforce the criminal judgments of another country," a principle Ginsburg said must have been known to the many lawyers who serve in Congress.

Boas conceded that "there was some sloppy drafting here," but said that if the court viewed the statute as a whole it would agree that "it would be almost absurd" to think Congress intended to count convictions abroad.

Justice Antonin Scalia, who believes in interpreting a law by focusing on its text rather than on Congress' intentions, countered that "the text of the provision supports the government." Scalia added that, when it wanted to, Congress explicitly referred to federal and state courts. That wouldn't be necessary, Scalia said, if "any court" meant "any state or federal court."

The debate over the meaning of the words "any court" -- which sometimes recalled former President Bill Clinton's comment during the Monica Lewinsky scandal that "it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is" -- dominated yesterday's argument, but it wasn't the only issue.

Boas suggested that if the United States recognized convictions in Japanese courts, which he said didn't follow American standards of due process, then it might have to recognize foreign convictions for offenses like criticizing a totalitarian government or possessing a Bible in Taliban-era Afghanistan. Boas noted that even Nobel Prize winning author Alexander Solzhenitsyn, who was imprisoned by the Soviet Union, might be unable to buy a gun in America.

Scalia replied that Congress might have been more concerned about keeping guns out of the hands of violent foreigners than about allowing former dissidents to own firearms. "It's tough on Solzhenitsyn that he can't buy a gun," Scalia added, "but he'll get over it."

Boas later said he thought the argument went well and that the justices had recognized that "there are serious problems with the way this statute was written."

Although he was absent yesterday, Chief Justice William Rehnquist has reserved the right to participate in cases argued during his treatment for thyroid cancer. Rehnquist's name was affectionately invoked yesterday by his colleagues, with Scalia prefacing one question by saying: "I'm going to ask a question the chief justice would ask if he were here."

Rehnquist hasn't disclosed which form of thyroid cancer he is suffering from, but descriptions of his treatment have prompted specialists to speculate that he might have been diagnosed with a life-threatening form of the disease. That possibility has fueled speculation that Rehnquist, a Republican appointee, may soon resign from the court, a scenario that gained new adherents yesterday with President Bush's re-election victory.



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(Michael McGough can be reached at mmcgough@nationalpress.com or 1-202-662-7025.)

Posters Questions: For the significant "value given" aren't we entitled to clearly written legislation?? Re comment from Mr. Justice Stevens, did you ever hear about something or someone "being damned by faint praise"?
 
A well-settled principal of scotus jurisprudence is the plain language doctrine. Congress is presumed to have meant the plain language used in the statutes they pass, unless otherwise clearly indicated by context, etc. Here, the plain language issue centers on the words "any court". The word "any" in its plain traditional english language definition means ANY! There is no limitation express or implied there as to a geographical or jurisdictional limit. The court is considering whether congress "meant" something they didn't say. No, the plain language doctrine says that the statute must be followed according to its plain language - if the dipsticks in congress make a mistake and meant to say "any US court" when they said "any court", then it's their dumbass fault and they need to correct it with an amendment to the legislation if that's what they meant. But they must be presumed to have meant what they said. Any other result than upholding the ban is pure judicial activism. I don't like the result personally, but that would be the correct legal result under our constitutional check and balance system. The "congress has a bunch of lawyers and therefore meant US courts" argument is utter nonsense. In fact, if anything, it weighs in favor of upholding the ban, because if there's a bunch of lawyers in congress, then they of all people should know of the plain language doctrine and should have been more careful, not less, in their specific wording. Now, since the correct result is upholding the ban, I would anticipate that, given that the high court has proven itself to be quite activist (ya know, that 'evolving' constitution thing), this gun ban will be overturned, which is a result I will be personally (somewhat) pleased with, but is the wrong legal result and bad precedent re activism vs. conservatism.

Boas later said he thought the argument went well and that the justices had recognized that "there are serious problems with the way this statute was written."

Yap, there are serious problems with it - and the congress must be held to the result that their plain language compels, as a result of the serious problems with the way the statute was written. To do otherwise only encourages further poorly-written laws, and leads to chaos eventually when the judges end up constantly supplanting what they THINK congress meant, even if clearly contrary to the obvious intent - substituting their own judgment for that of congress, anytime they just don't like what congress said. That's a heck of a slippery slope.
 
As a nation we have had friends and foes under the same flag at different times . The British for example . In 1776 and 1812 we put our boots "where the sun doesn't shine" but in WW1 and WW2 we fought together as we do now in Iraq . So if the term "any court" is to be genuine it must contain a caveat such as "that thinks as we do" or some such . The fact that Solzhenitsyn "will get over it" as per Scalia then perhaps he will advise the descendants of those harmed by the Holocoust that they can "get over it " now since they themselves weren't harmed . He is willing to curb the rights of one person so as to insure the Gubmint the right to uphold those convictions that please them . I have to wonder what restrictions are placed on those Cubans that were a part of the Murial (sp) Boatlift some years ago . If we DEMAND a right until we prove that we don't DESERVE that right we must afford that right to all . The only thing we as gun owners seem to agree on is (sometimes) an age restriction on some levels of ownership then we cannot allow a "slippery slope" to be built that can come back and bite us at a later date .
 
So if the term "any court" is to be genuine it must contain a caveat such as "that thinks as we do" or some such

Definitely! Which is why congress needs to go back and amend this crappy law to so reflect our values. Unfortunately for this defendant, however, under our constititional system of laws, he must be judged under the old (existing) bad law. Otherwise there's a breakdown in the system.
 
The breakdown in the system is an unconstitutional law passed by Congress, not anything the Supreme Court might do.
 
"It's tough on Solzhenitsyn that he can't buy a gun," Scalia added, "but he'll get over it."

Scalia, IIRC is the man who hasn't read Romeo and Juliet despite being a United States Supreme Court Justice (sp?). :) :)
 
I appreciate the "any court" language. Do we need Russian mafia emigres who are Russian convicts in Virginia buying firearms? Do we want EU criminals who are convicted in EU countries buying firearms? The unmentioned fact is that we are talking about a gunrunning terrorist. The fact that he is a liar and a convicted felon is moot.
 
I appreciate the "any court" language. Do we need Russian mafia emigres who are Russian convicts in Virginia buying firearms? Do we want EU criminals who are convicted in EU countries buying firearms? The unmentioned fact is that we are talking about a gunrunning terrorist. The fact that he is a liar and a convicted felon is moot.

How do people type things like this without stopping to laugh at themselves?

So now buying or shipping guns makes you a "terrorist" by default. We don't know the full circumstances of his prior conviction other than that he had some guns, maybe 2 or 200, (who knows, who cares unless you're Sarah Brady) hidden in a water heater. And we damn sure don't agree with the Japanese law that originally convicted him, so how can you take a position like that?

According to the "spirit of the law" (that's always good for a laugh) in the U.S., hopefully the average hypothetical "gunrunning terrorist" won't lie on the form he has to fill out when he walks into Steve's Hardware to buy that shipping container full of AK's that UPS just dropped off. :rolleyes:
 
Is that supposed to have some signifigance? If so, what would it be?

Yes. It is a pointer to the man's general level of education. And yes, it matters.

Do we need Russian mafia emigres who are Russian convicts in Virginia buying firearms? Do we want EU criminals who are convicted in EU countries buying firearms?

Do we care about the fact they are probably tried without benefit of juries, Miranda rights, and (as in the case of Russia and Japan) probably beaten during queestioning?
 
Scalia also obviously hasn't read the Gulag Archipelago:

And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the down-stairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of a half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?
He would most certainly NOT have gotten over being barred from owning the most effective tool for self-defense against a murderous, bloodthirsty government - the principal purpose of the Second Amendment - because of his opposition to such a government that had already barred firearms ownership by nearly everyone.
 
is there something else in play?
I'm for the "something else".

Funny how the cases the SC hears on firearm related issues all deal with a scum bag type.

Aren't the (otherwise) decent law abiding people that have been convicted of a felony in Mexico for simply having ammunition?

Why not hear one of hose cases instead of one about some gun running punk-ass scum bucket?
 
Funny how the cases the SC hears on firearm related issues all deal with a scum bag type.

It seems to be all landmark constitutional cases do.

(Think the Neo-Nazis who wanted to march in Skoki or Larry Flint). The Court apparently seems to think that the general principle is more important than it's current application. I couldn't agree more.
 
So, by the "plain language" of "any" court.. then if any nation wishes to try any US citizen in absentia.. then we are now beholden to that?

To show how assinine such a ruling would be: Iran could try the President of the United States, and find him guilty of some trumped up charge.

What is to prevent France from trying every US citizen in absentia.. and finding us all guilty.. and thus, preventing any american from owning a gun?

That would literally prevent any due process at all...
 
FirstFreedom
A well-settled principal of scotus jurisprudence is the plain language doctrine. Congress is presumed to have meant the plain language used in the statutes they pass, unless otherwise clearly indicated by context, etc. Here, the plain language issue centers on the words "any court". The word "any" in its plain traditional english language definition means ANY! There is no limitation express or implied there as to a geographical or jurisdictional limit.

If SCOTUS universally and absolutely accepted plain language there would be absolutely no question whatsoever over the 2nd Amendment and the words "the people".

There are territorial limits to jurisdiction, and for once Ruth Bader Ginsberg brings up an important related point;

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg countered that "we learned in law school that one country can't enforce the criminal judgments of another country..."

The SCOTUS could thus declare the law - as written - unconstitutional on grounds of jurisdiction.

FirstFreedom
Yap, there are serious problems with it - and the congress must be held to the result that their plain language compels, as a result of the serious problems with the way the statute was written. To do otherwise only encourages further poorly-written laws, and leads to chaos eventually when the judges end up constantly supplanting what they THINK congress meant, even if clearly contrary to the obvious intent - substituting their own judgment for that of congress, anytime they just don't like what congress said. That's a heck of a slippery slope.

Not if they declare the law as written unconstitutional and strike it down. It's about time the yellow form was struck out anyway. Congress are not about to do it - and probably not SCOTUS. But it would be correct if they did.

"It's tough on Solzhenitsyn that he can't buy a gun," Scalia added, "but he'll get over it."

If Scalia read the 2nd Amendment as it is plainly written, the same way he is claiming to read the law in this particular case, he would see a contradiction and conflict. And in any conflict between the US Constitution and a Federal law enacted by congress - which is superior?

Scalia is showing great ability at compartmentalization.
 
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