Is bigger better? Big gun trivia.

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Dixie Gunsmithing

Moderator Emeritus
For those who think bigger is better, here is a bit of trivia. The Schwerer Gustav, (31" bore), the largest rail mounted gun that Germany produced, during WWII, which was only used once, at the siege of Sevastopol, had to have the barrel changed out, after every 48 rounds, or sooner, as at 48, it was completely worn out. It was said that 48 rounds were fired, during the siege, and I doubt them having another couple of barrels handy, so it was probably around 49 to 50 total, if counting the test rounds fired in Germany. How's that for barrel life?

The gun was moved to within 18.5 miles of Leningrad, where they think it was to be used to put down the Warsaw Uprising, but it was never needed, and was then scuttled, to keep the Russians from capturing it.

It's mate, Dora, was used once, and was within 9.3 miles of Stalingrad, but was taken down, during the retreat, and found scuttled by advancing US troops in the west.

The Langer Gustav was destroyed, while being built at Krupp, by a bombing raid. It was intended for Calais, France, and was to be aimed at Britain, and most likely, London, or toward Paris.

The Nazis didn't get too many bangs for their buck, with the big guns.

While I'm thinking of it, are there any Gunners Mates on here, that happen to remember the barrel life of those 16"/50 Mark 2 guns on the Wisconsin?
 
Don't know about barrel life on those guns, but the Paris gun of WWI was provided with shells of different diameters. They were numbered and had to be fired in order from the smaller to the larger as the barrel wore down. Supposedly one gun blew up when some Dummkopf got the order wrong.

In a way the German fascination with huge ordnance monstrosities helped the Allies; no one will ever know how much money, machine time and man hours were wasted on big guns that were never used or huge tanks that could barely move. Or, more important, how many more effective weapons could have been produced for that same expenditure. Even the "wonder weapons" like the V1 and V2 required huge commitment of resources and accomplished little. (With nuke warheads, of course, they would have been devastating.)

Jim
 
The last tank they designed, by Porsche, and actually produced a few of, was the Maus, (Mouse), and was too heavy and slow to go anywhere, and drunk the fuel. It seems like Ferdinand Porsche was only good at designing automobiles, as the VW bug was his baby. The Panzer Tiger was so heavy, that they had to watch where they drove it too. Anyhow, these were all designed over trying to make bigger mobile guns, per Hitler's demands. I bet the barrel life on the Tiger's wasn't too great, either.
 
If the Germans had concentrated on manufacturing Panzer MkIVs and Panthers exclusively, the European armor war could have turned out quite differently. Good thing Hitler was crazy and getting crazier.
 
Actually the Panther had a fatal flaw, it typically only made 125 miles before the transmission broke. Even the French, who operated the Panthers longer than the Germans, and without war pressure, never figured out how to fix that.
As for the use of the heavy guns, they were developed for one thing, and one thing only. Break up heavy fortifications. And at that they excelled as show at Sevastopol. That heavy fortification became obsolete even faster than heavy guns wasn't really the heavy guns' fault.
 
dixie gunsmithing said:
It was said that 48 rounds were fired, during the siege, and I doubt them having another couple of barrels handy, so it was probably around 49 to 50 total, if counting the test rounds fired in Germany. How's that for barrel life?
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It would appear that the barrel life was more like 300 rounds.

Gustav had fired 48 rounds and worn out its original barrel, which had already fired around 250 rounds during testing and development.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwerer_Gustav

dixie gunsmithing said:
The gun was moved to within 18.5 miles of Leningrad, where they think it was to be used to put down the Warsaw Uprising,
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Warsaw is about 650 miles from Leningrad. I very seriously doubt if the Polish resistance in Warsaw (Warsaw uprising) even knew it existed, much less had any effect on the outcome.

dixie gunsmithing said:
While I'm thinking of it, are there any Gunners Mates on here, that happen to remember the barrel life of those 16"/50 Mark 2 guns on the Wisconsin?
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It was 350 before they switched to measuring barrel life by Fatigue Equivalents, which supposedly greatly increased barrel life over the 350. Wasn't a navy gunner, but I've always been fascinated by big guns and spent a lot of time on an M110 (8" howitzer) back in my younger days!
 
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45 auto, I didn't look it up anywhere, but got what I wrote off a documentary on the History Channel. Those are about unreliable, and that goes to prove it, if Wikipedia got it right, but that is iffy in itself. I'd say it would be hard to find anything reliable on them, unless it was something from the Nazi military or Krupp.

The reason I say this, is over what Jim mentioned about the Paris gun, and how quickly it wore. I think it was only good for around 60-65 rounds before relining, and the charge was lower and had a lot smaller projectile than the Gustav. Though I'd say Krupp used better steel for the barrel, than they had for the Paris gun, did it really achieve 300 rounds, and was that the only barrel used during testing? Whomever wrote that, didn't cite a source to check it. I'll look into that, and see if there are any factual historical sources, because I would like to know, since I've been studying these for a while.
 
My father got out of college with an EE degree, fought one year in WWII, came back and got a job working on the M55 design. He got a number of break through ideas and was promoted to chief engineer at Pacific Car and Foundry for the next 40 years. He died at age 90 in 2012.

The Israelis still bring the M55 out to shoot at Lebanon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M55_self_propelled_howitzer
 
I did some more reading on the Gustav, and there are several stories on it, and many don't agree with the next. The Popular Mechanics article was the most off. Anyhow, I found a book that did mention 300 rounds, but no other info or citations, and finally a page that gave citations, but no inline citations.

South African Military History Society, Military History Journal - Vol 12 No 4:

The first gun, Gustav, was completed towards the end of 1940 and the proof rounds were fired early in 1941 at the Rugenwalde Artillery Range. Both Hitler and Albert Speer, his armaments minister, attended the occasion, as well as Dr Porsche of Volkswagen fame. Also on site were twenty physicists and engineers who measured variables concerning the gun and the projectiles for evaluation and research purposes. To eliminate weather influence, infra-red measuring devices were used. From this data, the gun settings and charge for the next round were calculated. The temperature of the powder was carefully controlled, because it affected the rate of combustion, and hence the propelling force.

Test targets for the armour-piercing shell (without warhead) were seven metre-thick reinforced concrete walls and one metre-thick steel armour-plate. Test rounds were fired at short range and on a flat trajectory. The targets were pierced with ease. The steel plate had a clean hole through it as if it had been punched out in a giant press. The high-explosive shell blasted a crater 12 metres wide and 12 metres deep in compacted earth. The test results were highly satisfactory, and exceeded the specifications of the army. Gustav was ready for action, but with no targets lined up.
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http://samilitaryhistory.org/vol124lw.html

So, the shells were underweight, and a low charge was used, since they were firing it at short range. Here, they had to adjust and compensate for the speed and impact of a projectile hitting a target at at long range. From this, nobody knows how many actual rounds it could handle, with full weight rounds, at the normal or maximum charges.

Also, according to the South African Military History Society, there was only one gun built, and not two.

The gun was officially named after Gustav Krupp, director of Krupp Steel from 1909 to 1944, but in many publications the nickname 'Dora' is used. There have been many explanations for this but without any doubt it originated from the secret code name 'Implement D'. Interchanged use of the names 'Gustav' and 'Dora' created the wrong impression that two separate 800mm guns were built.
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The Big Book of Gun Trivia, with the mention of 300 rounds, but no citations:

https://books.google.com/books?id=iXqfAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT384&lpg=PT384&dq=gustav+gun+barrel+life&source=bl&ots=2jA2myXCF7&sig=L9ULEXnONNRFRTecEiSgQ7RiFCY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBWoVChMIteml75D8yAIVSMNjCh1lGgRC#v=onepage&q=gustav%20gun%20barrel%20life&f=false

Popular Mechanics, World's Largest Gun:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a228/1280861/

Interesting Engineering, Schwerer Gustav – The Biggest Cannon During WWII:

http://interestingengineering.com/schwerer-gustav-the-biggest-cannon-during-wwii/

What it boils down to, it seems, is that nobody knows 100% of what actually happened, or what is factual. The Gustav gun or guns were not around long enough to know any hard facts about them, such as expected gun life, and the rest. My guess is that the Gustav's barrel would last longer than the Paris Gun, but by how much would be an unknown. My guess, since the Paris gun claimed 60-65 rounds, (some claim lower), before relining, I would say this one may fare, maybe, 100-150 rounds, and I base that on advancements in steel, and maybe plating the bore with chrome, etc.
 
Clark, those had a shoe or blade, at the rear, that came down into the ground, to hold them back over recoil, didn't they? The article doesn't mention it.
 
I do not put a lot of work into wikipedia.
The M55, M107, M110, and XM70 technical features and patents will just be edited out again if I add them.

Just like any information about the CZ52 vs the Tokarev will be edited out.

Wikipedia is asking me for money. Just read about global warming on wikipedia and that will cure any impulse to give money.
 
Clark, I've butted heads with some of their editors. They have a few with a clear religious bias, when exposing hoaxes, and some with a clear usage of military or government censorship, over the items you've mentioned, and many others. Wikipedia has became known for not having very reliable information over it, especially when their editors delete what is written by several, who have agreed on the article content in the online discussion, even when they all cited credible sources. Wikipedia claims that those who are educated on a subject, because they are involved with it, should not be allowed to write an article, claiming them biased. They then want you to pay a writer to produce the article, using your information. Then, they will give you a list of preferred paid writers.

I use sources, online, such as Encyclopedia dot com, Encyclopedia Britannica, and the many books on Google books and other archives, along with my library. However, if they do not cite a source, I do not take them seriously, as it can easily be conjecture and speculation of the writer. Britannica, though, has a board who examines and accepts the articles, before they are released. Another good source are peer reviewed papers from the major universities.
 
The Gustav was likely named for Gustav Krupp von Bohlen und Halbach, the head of the Krupp empire*, but it should be noted that both "Dora" and "Gustav" are from the German (WWII) phonetic alphabet**, the equivalent of American WWII "George" and "Dog"; the modern American and NATO words are "Golf" and "Delta."

* Gustav was not a Krupp; his name had been Halbach. Bertha had inherited the firm, but had no interest in its operation, plus the German culture was not ready to accept the idea of a woman in charge of such an important arms manufacturer. So the Kaiser formally ordered that Gustav be a Krupp, so that he would be the owner of record and that his children could inherit "die Firma".

**The whole German alphabet is given here:
http://www.feldgrau.com/alphabet.html

Jim
 
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