Is an FFL needed for occasional Gunsmithing?

R

rburch

New member
I'm taking that Penn Foster Gunsmith Course, mainly to increase my own knowledge.

Several of the lessons clearly state that you have to have a FFL to work on other peoples' guns, but the lesson on the FFL says the license isn't needed if I only do work for others on occasion.

So which is correct? If it helps, the FFL lesson was written in 1997.

If you don't have to have a FFL, then what qualifies as occasional work? Since the BATF is involved, is it whatever the individual agents decide is occasional?:rolleyes:

Would I be okay tuning and repairing the guns of my friends and family? What about posting a flyer in the local gunshop and doing odd jobs? Talking 1-2 a month at the very most, things like mounting scopes, and repairing stocks.

Also if I was to make a habit of searching out junk guns and nursing them back to health before selling them would that make me a firearms dealer in their eyes? If so, I'd need a license?

So basically what I want to know is can you do gunsmithing work without a FFL?
 
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Why not simply apply for and get a FFL?
I am not 100% sure, but if you work on guns and don't charge, you are not in the gun "business", if you do charge, you ARE in the gun business and will need a FFL. Anyone is free to correct me if I am wrong on this point.
 
If you keep the gun overnight, you're entering dangerous territory, if you charge for your work. The BATFE frowns on business without FFLs doing any kind of unlicensed business with regards to firearms. Keeping a firearm overnight begins to look like a business to them.

I met someone recently who's doing gunsmithing work, but uses an FFL dealer as his (legal) "cover." The BATFE has OK'd the arrangement, but has required a safe on my acquaintence's premises. Because the firearm cannot leave his personal control, it has to be locked up overnight or whenever he's not actually working on it.

I'm not 100% clear on how this works, but the local ATF office is your best bet for advice. You might not like their answer (and whatever it is, get it in writing!), but if you're doing something they don't like, better to know before you start than learning after, when it becomes a criminal matter.

Regards,

Walt
 
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#i1

(I1) Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms?

Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer. See Item 16, “Federal Excise Tax” in the General Information section of this publication.

[27 CFR 478.11]

(I2) Does a gunsmith need to enter in a permanent "bound book" record every firearm received for adjustment or repair?

If a firearm is brought in for repairs and the owner waits while it is being repaired or if the gunsmith is able to return the firearm to the owner during the same business day, it is not necessary to list the firearm in the “bound book” as an "acquisition." If the gunsmith has possession of the firearm from one business day to another or longer, the firearm must be recorded as an “acquisition” and a “disposition” in the permanent "bound book" record.
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Basically, if you're getting paid for it, you need an FFL in order to do it legally.

pax
 
Is FFL Needed?

To operate a gunsmith business, Yes.
-Besides that ,without an FFL you will find it near impossible to get specific parts to work with. Receiver parts for example usually require an FFL to purchase. Trying to work on firearms without the FFL is going to get frustrating pretty quick. Also note there are many kinds of FFL. Get with your local BATF&E agent and they will work with you to decide what you'll need.
--Good luck.
 
Basically, if you're getting paid for it, you need an FFL in order to do it legally.
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Straight frothe horses mouth.

Now, the rub may be what they officialy consider a"business" (ie. is a few times in a year a business? not for most things, but guns arent most things), but thats aside from the keepng past that day thing, which may well apply for just 1 single gun, ever, even if the "business" part in I1 didnt really apply for just once.

personaly, If even 1 person in my entire life were planning on paying me to do gunsmith work on his/her gun, I would get the license. Best not to trifle with the BATFE IMHO. Which means for just a couple times a year, I personally just wouldnt do it, as its not worth the license cost to me.

YMMV vary, at your own risk.

You can always write to the BATFE And ask for an opinion on those as it applies specifially to your pesonal plans, and see what they say. If they say your fine to just do it a couple times a year without the license, I'd definitely keep the letter, thats for sure.
 
ffl

I dont want to get in here but engaged in the business means the primary income comes from gunsmithing.if you get the license you will have to pay income tax.whether you could claim your doing the repair as a training experience I dont know.the big problem is you cant trust what the ATF means from one day to next.thats the trouble with "learning for your own "you can get broken guns and fix them but you can only sell 3? a yr?
you could sell to a dealer.that othe one is probable listed as "working for the shop".:rolleyes::cool::D
 
Notice that the quoted part from the atf website uses the phrase "engaged in the business". That phrase was used in the "1968 Gun Control Act" in relation to gunsmithing, dealing, etc. Problem was that "engaged in the business" was never defined in statute untill 1986. Instead of just going off other people's opinions, you should read this stuff for yourself; United States Code, Title 18, chapter 44. The definition of "engaged in the business" speaks to full time occupation, profit, and exempts occasional work. It would be very hard to make a profit doing work for others just every now and then, considering how much investment you will make in tools and whatever else. Don't commercially avertise your service, don't have set prices, and whenever possible take something other than money in trade. As long as you operate as a hobbyist and not as a business (such as maintaining business records and having set prices), it would be very hard to make a case that you were "engaged in the business".

If you decide to go full time and make a profit, you may want to contact the atf to avoid legal battles.

I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal counsel; it's just my personal view of things.
 
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