Is an angled mount really necessary for long range shooting?

R

Ruben Nasser

New member
Hello guys, it's me again asking for your kind advice. I'm about to purchase a Leupold LR 6.5-20x50 scope,30mm tube, side adjustable parallax, Mk4M1 turrets. This scope is going to be mounted on a new Remington PSS 308 rifle, with the intent to develop my long range skills (the farthest I've shot so far is 600 yards, but Iwould like to reach 1000). I would like to keep a degree of flexibility in this rifle, that's why I don't want to increase magnification, 6.5x20 seems like a good compromise, and I've never had a "cheek weld" problem with 50mm objectives (and I like the extra light since I'm also thinking about a custom illuminated reticle in this scope, if possible).
I've checked to amount of elevation adjustment in this scope, and it seems enough to reach 1000 yards with reloads and sierra's 168 and 175gr. HPBTs, the usual choice. What's the advantage of having 15 or 20 more MOA? Just as an insurance against mounting problems or is it better to have the adjustments a little apart from its limits?
 
Ruben you came to the right place. Yes, if you are serious about 1000 yard shooting, you need the tapered bases or some other sort of compensation. Let me tell you how I know.

I have a sister rifle, The 700 VS in .308. I bought the Leupold 6.5x20 LRT just like you are going to get. I have shot a 1000 yard match with this rifle and some Hornady 178 gr. A-max. Here is the quick proof.
1000yd1.jpg
You can see the white target boards 1000 yards in the background, the little black dots beneath are the targets. You will also notice the red tips of my A-Max in my box.
1000yd2.jpg
In this picture you can see the Rem 700 Vs with the Leupold 6.5x20mm LRT and 4" sun shade.

Here was my problem. I ran out of elevation even with the 30mm tube. I thought all was lost. However, the guy spoting for me told me to hold a bit higher. Pretty soon I got one on the target and I was holding above the #4 marking board that was above and beyond my target as I was on station #4. I started to hold on one of the intersections of the 4 and then adjusted my elevation and windage from there. Despite my shortcomings, I ended up shooting a quite nice 385-10x out of 400 off of my bipod. The other hard core shooters were pretty impressed. I ended up adjusting up 120 clicks (1/4" clicks, so that equals 30 MOA) from my 100 yard zero. Keep in mind this was up 30 MOA while still holding about 10-15' high over the actual target.

So despite the brags by Leupold about the extra elevation adjustment that comes along with our 30mm tube, with the .308, you are still probably going to come up just short at 100 yards. Now, I found that as long as there is a nice big number board above the target with a distinct number that has a specific intersection you can hold on much like the center of the x ring, you might be able to compensate. The only problem with that, I made do, but I don't have the real satisfaction of knowing my rifle can be effective out to 1000 yards.

Makes me wonder why Leupold doesn't simply leave between 10-20 MOA for lowering elevation and then put the other 40-50 MOA on raising the elevation. Instead they center the scope. I wonder if they can adjust that at the factory? If so, instead of spending all of that money on a new tapered base, I would consider sending the scope back and having its center adjusted. I am going to check on that and get back to you.

So, if you really want to shoot long range, you need that extra MOA, it is crucial. Otherwise you end up going half ass like I did. Sure it works, but it really leaves you feeling left out of the real long shooters circles. By the way, what kind of mount are you planning on getting? I have the Leupold Dual Dovetail dual bases and Medium Dual Dovetail medium 30mm rings. I bought the super high's but they were super high. The scope fits perfectly with the mediums on my VS and from my understanding, the only difference between our guns is you have a little bit nicer stock. I just painted my gun too, I am really happy with the camo job I did on it. Sorry this is so long, but you asked for info and you got it!

[This message has been edited by El Rojo (edited October 22, 2000).]
 
Muchas gracias, Rojo!! By the way, nice shooting!! I've just checked the Leupold site and the LR (30mm tube + side parallax) 6.5-20x50 has 80 MOA available for elevation and windage, even the Mk4M1 10x40 has "only" 90 MOA (my Tasco SS 10x42 has about 120 MOA!!). According to my ballistic program I'll need about 45 MOA to reach 1000 yards (depending on the bullet, velocity, wind, etc.), and the scope reticle is initially centered, so 45 MOA elevation is more than these scopes can give (or they are on the edge). There is no way the factory can adjust it to have more elevation and leave just a little below, because the scope tube and erector tube are concentric, you have to mount it angled.
I'll get an angled base, but I don't want to spend $180 for the ring and bases, I'm thinking about getting the dual dovetail one piece base and have it machined about 15º by a friend in his workshop. Do you know of a strong angled base that is not too expensive?
 
Ruben I'm going to give you some advice and this comes from someone who's done it, don't go for cheap when it comes to mounts and rings. A good set up would be an MWG Tapered which Brownell's has for about $98 and a set of low matte Leupold QRW rings about $55 at Sinclair's www.sinclairintl.com. And if you go with this make sure to get the low rings. Some people will tell you to go with higher rings because of the 50mm objective but the tapered bases are thicker than standard and make up for the height. My friend ddn't believe me and took a guy from Natchez's recommendation over the phone and got the high mounts because this guy looked in his book and said that's what was needed. And you know what....he had to wait about two weeks for the return and exchange before he could shoot his rifle because he didn't trust me. I knew because I have this exact set up with my 6.5-20LR scope and I have a heavier tapered barrel than the standard remington and I still have room between the barrel and scope. That's a good set but if you want better go with Badger Ordnance bases and rings which you can get from Premier reticles www.premierreticles.com. Leupold's figures are right if you have the windage dead center but when you start moving the windage it takes away a little bit of your elevation. Also when you get to the top of your elevation sometimes your zero can shift. And remember that 80MOA isn't all up that's 40 up and 40 down when centered. With the tapered base it lets you use those downs tht are usually not used. Good luck with your set up.
 
Rob, thanks for the advice, it is great to listen so someone with experience. Have any of you had any experience with the Burris Signature rings? They are the ones that have a self-aligning plastic insert, and you can use excentric inserts like shims to correct mounting problems and add quite a bit of elevation, just like a tapered base. I don't like the redfield style mount (back windage screws are a little flimsy), but the mount could be weaver or double dovetail style (...now, one-piece or two piece?). The only thing about these rings is that they are not as strong as the Badger or Mk4, but I think the plastic insert will do a good job in gripping the scope against recoil.
 
Forgive my ignorance, but I'm just getting into this genre of shooting. With the added MOA from the tapered rings, can you still get a good zero at 100 yds (not 1000, but 100) I'm just wondering if you're looking way to high when something's that close.
 
Sorry but I don't have much experience with the Burris rings. I've heard good things about them but personally I don't like the plastic ring. Call me silly but it's just one more thing that could go wrong. I like the KISS way of doing thigs when I'm setting up gear. I didn't even think about mentioning shimming becasue I thought you wanted a tappered mount but shimming is a good way to go but make sure you use a one piece base so the rings are still aligned. Also make sure to lap your rings so there aren't any forces acting on the scope tube that might throw off it's performance. Also in the Sinclair catolog they have Lightforce two piece tapered bases for only $65. And if you get the low QRW rings there they are only $56 so you can get an extra 20MOA for only $121. Hope everything works out for you.
 
I had a guy tell me that he just uses some aluminum can sections cut out like his rifle base and shimms the back mount. The only problem is that unless you lap the rings, you can put a major kink into your scope. I think that would be the easiest option, but I am just not too excited about kinking that $630 scope. How easy or hard is it to lap the rings? I would do this, but being a young inexperienced lad, I am scared of screwing something up.
 
Rob, I like your idea of the Lighforce bases and QRW rings. In a recent article (I think it was "shooting times" or "hunting" magazine), Col. Craig Boddington advices on roughing up the inner contact surfaces in the rings with sandpaper go improve the grip. It seems to me that by lapping you are achieving the exact opposite (a well aligned but polished surface), which is the best way to go?.
Red, you're right, is better not to use shimming in a two piece base unless you lap the mounted rings afterwards to align them, or you could buy a one piece base or use the Signature rings to gain MOA. It is very easy to lap the rings, and maybe you can do it just to make sure your double dovetail is not stressing your scope.
Frontsight, it is not a problem to zero the rifle at 100 yards with tapered bases.
 
Ruben, personally I have never had a lapped scope slip from the rings being smooth. And I shoot a .300 WinMag along with my .308 so recoil will not loosen it up. After the scope is properly torqued in, it ain't moving.

El Rojo, lapping is very easy. I am not all that mechanically inclined but I can do it no problem at all.
 
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