Is a full sizing die needed for a pump action 30-06

S

superking75

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Do I need to use a full sizing die for every reload or can I get away with just a neck sizing die, with a pump action 30-06?

I am asking because I know full sizing is not needed for a bolt action, but is it needed for a pump?'

thanks
 
to pump

I would absolutely full size and see how they chamber.

You do not want to force a round into the chamber; little effort is all you should use.

If they loaded rounds stick or do not load smoothly, you may want to try a small base die.

Remember to trim your brass after running them through your dies.
 
Again we are entering the area of what constitutes full length resizing and neck sizing, usually a determination of the relationship between a fired case and the dimensions of the sizing die. All chamber dimensions and sizing die dimensions are not exactly identical for a given caliber. But obtain a full length die and then it becomes a matter of proper die adjustment for obtaining proper chambering after sizing. The fired case with the particular sizing die may require some shoulder set back or maybe not. Refer to the sizing die instructions that in general may go something like this. Screw the sizing die down to contact the shell holder and then back off a fraction of a turn, like a half or three quarters. Size a fired case and if it chambers easily, sizing should be satisfactory and this would be considered neck sizing. However if the case will not chamber, this means that the case has elongated and the shoulder must be set back. To do that screw the sizing die down in small increments until easy chambering does occur. Now we are in the realm of full length resizing. There is another factor that could complicate things and prevent chambering but I will not go into that since it is not likely to occur. But be sure that the sized cases will chamber before continuing with the loading.

And the same does apply to bolt rifles regarding neck or full length resizing.
 
After years of people bringing in guns that "Just started jamming", I can give you a simple answer. Yes, you need to full length resize with pumps and lever actions.
 
The neck-sized-only method works best with single-loaded rounds even in a bolt gun. For any form of magazine feeding, full length sizing is far more reliable. You may get away with neck sizing for a time, but the cases gradually expand to a tighter fit in the chamber with each load cycle. Very low pressure loads take longer to have this happen, but eventually it does.

A special warning: NEVER NECK-SIZE ONLY FOR A SELF-LOADING GUN WITH A FLOATING FIRING PIN.

I was recently contacted by a fellow who had been neck sizing for an M1 Garand. The result was an out-of-battery firing that damaged the gun, throwing the bolt back so hard it cracked the receiver. He was just lucky it didn't damage him. I have his permission to share his photos of what it did to the 30-06 case and gun. It's unusual that the case head doesn't bulge and blow out in these events, but apparently it jammed so early in the feed that it had room to blow out the thinner brass at the shoulder first.

Case%20Blown_zpsitfxkbsq.jpg


Receiver%20Cracked_zpsmrcc8r9k.jpg
 
Shoot enough neck sized rounds and you will be convinced about the need for full length sizing. Pump guns have hardly any primary camming or leverage on extraction, once you stick a case in your pump gun you will have a lot of fun trying to extract the thing. You might bust the extractor, or you might rip the rim off the case.

I recommend buying a cartridge headspace gage, such as below. The Wilson type measure the length between base and shoulder only, but that is sufficient for setting the cartridge headspace.



This is how you do it, you set up your sizing die so that the sized case is inbetween the Go and No Go lines.



This is a more expensive cartridge headspace gage, it is cut in all dimensions to a SAAMI minimum chamber. I like the port, it is neat to see the clearance between case and gage.



I also recommend small base dies for these pump rifles, but the factory may have cut the chamber large, to prevent chambering issues. SAAMI puts out recommended chamber dimensions, but compliance is voluntary. If a manufacturer decides that larger dimensions, or smaller dimensions, is better, then that is what they will do.
 
I am asking because I know full sizing is not needed for a bolt action
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Depends on the specific gun. I have a 30-06 bolt that requires small-base full length sizing. Also have a 308 that is fussy about neck-sized cases, usually a no-go in that rifle.
 
It's unusual that the case head doesn't bulge and blow out in these events, but apparently it jammed so early in the feed that it had room to blow out the thinner brass at the shoulder first.
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Neck sizing for a semi auto with a free floating firing pin will absolutely create the perfect conditions for an out of battery slamfire.

Garand mechanisms will slamfire in battery and out of battery just due to primer sensitivity. These mechanisms do not have a positive firing pin block so the firing pin is free to rebound off the primer as the round is chambered.







Bolt velocity, thus firing pin velocity is highest at cam down, so there are lots of reports of in battery slamfires when rounds are chambered. However, given a tight fit, such as a neck sized case, these things do go off out of battery, given a sensitive enough primer. There are some good pictures of a blown off receiver heel in this thread:

Always wear your safety glasses!

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1106793

The OP never came back to describe his sizing procedures nor the primers he used, but hopefully that ruined $1000 rifle and the almost "shot his eye out" is enough caution to back up Unclenick's warning on these things.
 
Pump, semi and lever action require FL resizing every time. Has to do with the relative strength of the bolt's camming action.
For a bolt action, you'll have to FL resize brand new brass and any that was fired out of another rifle. Neck sizing only really doesn't extend case life much. Not at all if the load is hot.
"...Garand mechanisms will slam fire..." If and only if the ammunition is defective.
 
I guess a lot of times these questions have to be answered with "why?"

Is there a very, very good reason that you want to violate this century old standard? It's quite well known that neck sizing alone allows brass to form so precisely to the chamber that fitting it in after neck sizing can be difficult. My .243is like that, neck size alone, and it takes a bit of pressure.

Pump and semiautomatic rifles have locking lugs that operate on just a little spring pressure. If your loaded rounds don't fit properly, your rifle won't function properly.

My thoughts on the matter. If it was something really important, or there was a real benefit to be gained, I'd say give it a try, but unless you h ave a really good reason, there's no reason to do it.
 
The why is usually economy; to be able to get a Lee loader rather than invest in a press and other reloading equipment. Clearly, a pump gun isn't going to benefit measurably on accuracy from neck sizing because even a bolt gun often only sees improvement if you can orient the head stamp the same way in the chamber each time you shoot it.

On another forum we had a fellow from, I think, Finland, who was getting a new M1A and planning to neck size-only to load for it. I couldn't talk him out of it. He stopped posting, so I don't know what happened with it. Probably either jammed or burst. But apparently reloading tools cost more over there, so the motivation is stronger to cut corners.
 
:Slamfire: Having a drawer full of those great Wilson gauges, I found a better way to use them: measure the max. size, and etch it on the die for reference, then trim off enough with your lathe to ensure that the fired cases stick out of the die. Now you can measure it with your micrometer, much more accurate than eyeballing gaps.:)
 
No, you don't need to full-length resize for a pump gun. But your ammo may only chamber in your gun. You still have to check OAL and trim if necessary.

Just my opinion of course. I neck-size whenever possible, but I'm a hunter - not a long range shooter.
 
"I am asking because I know full sizing is not needed for a bolt action,"

I think that's far too general a statement. I don't "KNOW" and seriously "DOUBT" the truth in that comment(when applied across the board).
While it MAY be acceptable to neck size brass for re-use in the same bolt action in which it was originally fired, I've not done so since I normally have multiples of any chambering I reload for.
Regarding the OP: I've found the pump actions to be more picky as to how the brass is sized than semi-autos(referencing Remington pump /auto).
 
It's true that brass to be shared across a cabinet full of guns must be sized down to standard dimensions.

Guy, I guess you might as well start loading them however you want to and see how they work. It's kind of unlikely that you will have a catastrophic event, but you may have functioning problems. Hopefully, the worst that can happen is that you learn the answer to your question, and find out that it didn't work.
 
And then there was reloading before the Internet; and there were Browning rifles that were auto loaders. Before that there was the M1 Garand. In the early days there were at least 3 different chambers for the 30/06. One was the M1, by design the M1 used the same ammo as the 03 Springfield and M1917; so they cut the chamber with additional clearance, not a lot but a little.

Back to Browning rifles; the Browning rifle used the same 30/06 over the counter, new factory ammo other 30/06 chambered rifles used. And then it came to reloading; we know how dies designs have evolved; correction, we should know.

When The Browning automatic became available reloaders cranked out reloads like many reloaders today. They raise the ram, they lower the ram. RCBS made a set of dies for the Browning Automatic Rifle, they marked the box BAR. The dies remind me of the M1 Chamber, the difference between the BAR sizing die and a standard die is small; so small most can not distinguish the difference in the two dies. By some, BAR dies are considered to be small base dies. My opinion; BAR dies are dies made well made sizing die that are on the minimum specification side.

So in the beginning rloaders had problems sizing cases for self loaders because of bad reloading habits. RCBS made dies for the BAR; I have BAR 300 Winchester Mag. Dies, BAR 270 Winchester and 30/06 BAR dies.

Both the full length sizing die and the seating die in the set are stamped BAR.

F. Guffey
 
And then there is the Wilson case gage, in the beginning they printed the instructions with no mention of head space on the gage and or the gage. Then as it is now the reloader could not loade for something he did not have or understand. POINT? I have a M1917 30/06 rifle that has a long chamber; how long? It is .016” longer than a minimum length/full length sized case. That means the chamber is .002” longer than a field reject length gage. When I check my cases after firing and or after sizing I have .011” case head protrusion when checking the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head. After sizing I have I have .011” case head protrusion from the case gage.

My chambers have head space, I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case. If you are interested in using the Wilson case gage for the fun of it keep on keeping on, but if you are interested in sizing cases for your chamber find someone that can measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. If that was a common practice smiths would include that information to the person that is paying to have the rifle repaired and or built.

I have Wilson case gages, I have the instructions that came with the gage. The instructions are dated 1954; in the instructions Wilson recommended a straight edge, for me it was a small step from the straight edge to adding the feeler gage. Before that I used a flat surface with a feeler gage. The Wilson case gage is a datum based tool, the datum in the Wilson case gage has a radius.

F. Guffey
 
I am asking because I know full sizing is not needed for a bolt action, but is it needed for a pump?'
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You know? At one time there was an old saying among reloaders; it went something like; “The case is not full grown until it has been fired at least 4 times” and then there is the other old saying; “And then it must be full length sized to start over”. And I have always wondered how a reloader can start over with cases that have been fired from 4 to 5 times because the case has been fired 5 times; how is it possible to start over. It is about that time they start grinding the top of the shell holder and or bottom of the die because there full length sizing die will not return the case to minimum length.

Back to “How can they do that?”, if the case has been fired 5 times it has increased in its ability to resist sizing; I know, most of you are ‘so confused’. If the case increases in its ability to resist sizing the reloader must have a press that has the ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing. When the case gets tuff to size I switch case lubes, even then I understand the case has become work hardened.

Then there is that other saying; goes something like: “You can neck size a case but there comes a time the case must be full length sized because it has grown”.

F. Guffey
 
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