Is 5,000 FPS possible?

DontRushTheShot

New member
Is 5,000 fps out of any caliber wildcats included possible? How safe is it if it is possible? What caliber could it be done with/ has been done with? If I was to guess .22-250AI or .22-.243 maybe .220 Swift would be the best bet but many of the .22 caliber family run super hot but I have never heard of anyone hitting 5,000 fps with anything. Obviously this wouldn't be practical seeing barrel life would be in the hundreds if not the teens and even then accuracy would probably be awful. But I just want to know if it can be done.

Thanks, Jaycob.
 
There are several wildcat cartridges that can do it.

5,000 is tough but 4,500 is relatively easy. I do that in a regular old .22-250 with a 24" barrel using 35gr Noslers.
 
In 1959 the military gave Roy Weatherby a contract to develop a cartridge capable of 6000 fps.

That is the reason for the 30-378 Weatherby.

He could only break the 5000 fps barrier.

When slower powders became available, he did develop loads that exceeded 6000 fps. That was years before the cartridge was commercialized.
 
4200 fps with 223 35 gr Vmax with Blue dot.

The H110 loads are faster, but too fast for the chronograph to trigger.
 
I knew that 4,500 fps was possible. I read over at another forum a guy loading .22-250 (it may have been a .22-.243 don't quote me on this) to 4,800 fps, accuracy was awful and based off of his guess-timations barrel life couldn't be anymore than a few hundred if that. I was just curious.

Does anybody here have any first hand experience with 5,000 fps loads?
 
Wouldn't some reliable way to measure pressure be needed as well as an accurate chronograph?
Sounds risky for amateur reloaders to attempt.
 
With due respect to Mr. Weatherby, I've not seen any reference other than Layne Simpson's article on the history of the .30-378 exceeding 6,000 fps, and it would be very interesting, for historical and technical reasons, to get information on how it was measured (what equipment was involved) and what the magic propellant was.

Consider that a 30-378 loaded with a light 100 grain bullet. At 6,000 fps that bullet would carry about 8,000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. About the same as a 460 Weatherby Magnum getting 2450 fps with a 600 grain bullet, which Hodgdon claims it can do with about 115 grains of H4831 and a 26" tube (though QuickLOAD thinks the pressure would still be too high; Hodgdon has no pressure measurement for their 460 Weatherby loads, so this is one of those "work-up-to-very-carefully "published loads). So that makes the 6,000 fps 100 grain bullet seem at least feasible—until we consider the powder mass.

In the 460 Weatherby, the velocity is low enough, and the expansion ratio large enough (about 9:1) that virtually all the powder burns in the barrel, and so, on average, with half that gas at the breech standing still, and half chasing the bullet, we have 57.5 grains of powder mass at 2450 fps the moment before the bullet base clears the muzzle, which takes only 767 ft-lbs of energy, or less than 10% of the total provided by the powder. If we try to drive that same powder mass to 6,000 fps to chase the 100 grain bullet, it takes 4,600 ft-lbs of energy just to move half the powder, a much bigger drain on the powder energy budget. It gives us 8,000 + 4,600 ft-lbs or 12,600 ft-bs that has to be extracted from the powder and put into forward-moving translational kinetic energy. The original 115 grains is no longer adequate. Now we need at least 115×12,600/8,000, or 188 grains of the same powder. But that doesn't cut it either, because even if you could assume all the powder could burn behind the light bullet in the smaller .30-378 expansion ratio (4.3:1, which it won't; ballistic efficiency will decrease), we now have a bigger mass and now even more energy is needed to move the powder and so the total charge increases further. Indeed, if the same 69.6 ft-lbs of muzzle energy per grain of powder could be extracted in the 30-378 as with the 460 Weatherby, it would take a 270 grain charge of powder to reach 6,000 fps with the 100 grain bullet. Basically, twice as much powder as it takes to get to 5,000 fps under the same assumptions. To fit that 270 grains into a 30-378 case, you would need powder density about the same as the solid density of powder with no space between the grains.

So, maybe a miracle propellant was delivered to Mr. Weatherby, or maybe there was a velocity instrumentation error. But 6,000 fps is really stretching credibility. I read long ago that the military had experimented with 30 and 50 caliber bullets in necked-down 20 mm cases in super heavy fixed guns, but ran into a limit for nitrocellulose-based powders that was below the 6,000 fps mark, though close to it (the number 5,700 fps comes to mind, but my memory should not be trusted on this). Powder mass and ballistic efficiency decreasing with degree of overbore case capacity sets limits to velocity that are pretty hard to overcome if nitrocellulose-based propellants are used, even with nitroglycerin added to increase total energy density. Some other, higher energy density propellant may be another matter. If we assume the veracity of the 6,000 fps number, I can only venture the opinion that it wasn't likely done with a nitrocellulose-based powder. I don't know what it would be, though. At any rate, I hope this gives the OP a better idea of the nature of the problem. It's the exponentially growing quantity of powder required, even if bores and throats are to be sacrificed.
 
Maybe I should add that I have no desire to attempt 5,000 fps nor will I seeing that I don't even reload yet, though I will soon. Im not a rich man, I'm not going to waste powder, a barrel, and brass to try and attempt this, let alone do I want to die lol.

Thanks for all the replies guys! Jaycob...
 
Excellent explanation UN, as usual. This is something I've noticed since I've added a 300WM to the lineup. Using IMR 4350 and a 175gr bullet as an example, according to Hodgdons reloading: 30-06, charge wt 57.0gr (compressed) velocity 2780FPS. 300WM, charge wt 72.7gr velocity 3106 FPS. Roughly speaking that's a 20% increase in powder charge weight for a 10% increase in velocity.
 
Why would you say that the increase isn't more dramatic? With 20% more powder you would think you would get atleast a 20% increase but maybe this is to much science?
 
Does anybody here have any first hand experience with 5,000 fps loads?

US Army, M1A1 Abrams 120mm gun APFSDS "Silver bullet" rounds do over 5,000fps.

I once read where there was an experiment use a .243win case and a sabot round ball (2mm?) which hit over 5,000fps in a test fixture.

With 20% more powder you would think you would get atleast a 20% increase but maybe this is to much science?

No, it doesn't work like that. Or rather not quite like that. There is a range where X amount of more powder = X more fps, BUT when you go past that, you get diminishing returns. The further you go, the more you have to burn to get a smaller increase. It's not linear. AND it differs with different cases and barrel lengths.

For example with certain calibers, it takes a 15-20% increase in powder charge to get a 10% increase in velocity. You can still get an increase, but you are past the point of balanced efficiency.
 
xandi said:
Overkill expenation(:
Even if the "overkill explanation" (UncleNick, post #8) was indeed overkill, it was admirably clear and understandable; and a lot less overkill than 6,000 fps (though I completely understand and agree with the OP's motive).

As you spend more time on the forum, I believe you will come to appreciate UncleNick's knowledge and willingness to share his wisdom.

Lost Sheep
 
shrunk coins

At an amateur lab in a low rent warehouse in Seattle in 1994 some not so scientific and some famous guys were messing with surplus rail gun parts.

My father was paraded, with scores of other military suppliers part of Reagan's Star Wars, past a rail gun that stored energy in a rotating Copper disc, but the one we had was washer and dryer sized low inductance low effective series resistance capacitors that would go to 10,000 Volts and output 1,000,000 Amps for an instant.

10,000 fps pellets did not seem interesting to me, but shrinking coins was. A coil made a magnetic field. The two magnetic fields crowded each other.
The eddy current in the coin made another magnetic field. The wire exploded to make the coil larger in major diameter and smaller in minor diameter, while the coin got squished.

That land in Seattle is now very high rent. I think REI is there.
 
b92fs, what do you mean why? Why did Uncle Sam need a 6000fps rifle? I read somewhere that what they were looking to do was do spark-gap photography of various nose shapes in flight at that speed for hypersonic vehicle research. Wind tunnel work, basically.

So if those are the straight facts, it was never intended to be an actual weapon, let alone a practical one, so concerns for accuracy and barrel life were nil. It only had to be accurate enough to get the projectile in front of the camera, and the barrel life only had to be greater than the number of test shapes they intended to fire.

(As an aside, when I was a kid, I wrote a novel-length abomination in which the heroes used .19-calibre assault rifles firing a 68 grain bullet at TEN THOUSAND feet per second. All this was to be done with powder-burning arms, and the gun, which I imagined as a clone of the British service bullpup rifle, fired on full auto from a 45 round box mag at 2000 rounds per minute & could be wielded with ease by young children. Shows you how much I knew about guns back then. :p )
 
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I actually like the overkill explinations lostsheep, and intended that comment as complement hince the emojI
How much blue bot did it take to get that v max to 4200 Fps?
Could a run of the mill bullet survive 6k fps I imagine it would take a tougher projectile then normal
 
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James Howe worked at Springfield doing development. He said th a 5k had been passed in a standard round, but barely. He did not describe it as useful. Further in the page he brought up tapered bores th a allowed full pressure to be retained, and he also referred to sabot rounds to maybe push a practical round even higher. Remington made a sabot round that passed 4k.

IMO, creating a rfirearrm round capable of going very far past 5k that would still be useful as a personal weapon is either very far away, or impossible. I'm astounded that a projectile could even hold up at 5 k.
 
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