Irony or coincidence? Debate with my pro-gun control sibling

K

Kimio

New member
So my brother and I were having a debate (a rather civil one at that) this past night, that unfortunately had me on the losing side due to having a brain melt down and the normal arguments I normally could generate were not there.

Long story short, one of my key arguments during our debate was that the purpose of either a handgun or a long gun (AR15) with a large capacity magazine was to help in defensive situations, to ensure that you have the greatest margin for error, among other reasons.

For the longest time, my brother saw no reason to have a handgun with large capacity magazines, let alone a rifle. He saw no reason to even own a gun, since where he lives it's pretty safe and secure is it not? Well today, he calls me up asking how much a handgun would run?

This has me perplexed, since he was pretty adament about not owning one himself (though he's not against others owning one, he felt large capacity magazines and the like are bit extreme); turns out, he was woken up in the middle of the night of what sounded like someone trying to break into his home. He lives alone right now and only had a hammer to defend himself with, and he isn't exactly proficient in any form of martial arts.

I remember him scoffing at the idea of having to have a defensive firearm in these "civilized" times, that having a gun promotes gun violence and the whole lot.

Kind of funny how things can rapidly change a persons thought process when they find themselves in a situation of wishing they had a gun and end up not having one.
 
Magazine capacity can seem absurd. That is, until you vividly imagine yourself in a defensive situation and acknowledge how hard it might be to hit a moving target, or targets, in poor light, when you are dosing or distracted and suddenly have a pint of adrenaline dumped into you bloodstream, and that you might induce a jam or two. And read how some jacked up perp absorbed 9 shots before slowing down on the attack.
 
Let's drop the leftist, fascist - misuse of terms.

We find antigun folks who have quite solid 'conservative' credentials and 'leftists' who are progun.

It isn't useful or relevant to this conversation.
 
Take him to a gun range and rent some guns. Start out with a short barreled gun and move the target out to 25 feet (common house hold distance) and then try a 4 inch barreled gun and repeat. Compare groupings. Afterwards, send him some you-tube showing gun vs sheet rock using pocket gun vs full sized pistols.
 
he's not against others owning one, he felt large capacity magazines and the like are bit extreme
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While we often use the term “anti-gun” I believe most Americans do not really oppose firearms ownership. The debate is really more about what type of hardware we should own and where we should be allowed to carry that hardware.

So, no I don’t think it’s unusual that your brother might oppose certain guns, magazines, or carry freedoms, but actually want to own a gun. In some ways it’s simpler to put everyone into one camp or the other when we have these various debates, but often that’s just not accurate.
 
It sounds like Anti Second Amendment would be more accurate in this case. There's plenty of anti 2A folks that have one or more firearms.
 
@bt380 I have taken him to the range before, in fact my brother is currently serving in the reserves and recently had to qualify with an M9 (Not the greatest performance from what I saw, but then again, I'm not fantastic with handguns either)

@Barrylee I believe you hit the issue on the head here. He doesn't have an issue with people owning guns per say, his concern is 1: The accessibility of firearms to those who may commit a "crime of passion", or who are unstable and go shooting up a mall or something. 2: the effectiveness of a firearm that has a large capacity magazine.

Both of these I argued that training and responsibility on gun safety are key, he countered with "I understand you stress gun safety and education, the problem is, the education isn't there, or doesn't appear to be."

He frequently brought up the fact that "Pro gun advocates don't bother me too much, but the extreme ones are typically the ones who appear to be representing the community, and they scare the crap out of me. They are also the ones that I think will likely get stuff pushed to congress, which is why I believe the anti-gun parties push equally outrageous policies"

To be clear, he thinks both sides of the fence have fools on them, so while he's an individualist, he does lean left more as much as I tend to lean right on many things. We both agree on may other topics concerning politics and have relatively intelligent debates that are calm and concise (most of the time).

I think the thing is my brother believed that using a gun is so incredibly easy that anyone can use it and be effective at defending themselves. The thing is, I think his time at the range; qualifying for the M9, showed him the realities of marksmanship, and that using a gun, while it's easy to pick up and pull the trigger, ensuring that you're accurate isn't as simple as he may have thought. I still think he's leaning towards the left for "high capacity" magazines, but those beliefs may have been shaken, especially after what may have been an attempted break in at his home.
 
but those beliefs may have been shaken, especially after what may have been an attempted break in at his home.
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There is an old joke about how the staunchest law and order conservative is "a liberal who's been mugged!"

And its often true, there are no believers as zealous as the converted.

Get him a shotgun.

That way, after he misses, he at least has something better than a pistol to try and beat the attacker with...:rolleyes:
(that is sarcasm, another free service I offer;))

He's handled & shot an M9, ok, fine, build on that. But really, really emphasize that he needs to know the legality of when you can, and cannot shoot.

Real guns, real bullets and real bad guys do NOT behave like what you see on the screen with any degree of consistency. He doesn't need to know that, he needs to understand that. And then, he can go making choices, which you might help him with.
 
Yeah, I encouraged him to take classes and to at the very least go and practice once a month if possible, if he decides to get a handgun.

I told him he needs to familiarize himself with both federal and local gun laws, especially since he lives in California, which has a record of not exactly being friendly to firearms owners (though he'd disagree to some extent). I told him there are a plethora of rules and regulations, and they he needs to understand the weight of responsibility that is placed upon him by owning a gun.

The biggest hurdle I feel is that I'm not sure he really understands that shooting someone isn't exactly a "no brainer" in a self defense scenario, and furthermore, just because he may be able to hit that person, doesn't mean he'll be able to stop them if they're determined to do him harm. That is something I'm not sure that is ingrained into his mind yet, as far as I can tell, he still has that interpretation that a handgun is some kind of super powerful weapon of mass murder, that you can empty a magazine in a room and kill 30-40 people with ease, and that you can easily place shots in the vital parts of an assailants body if you have enough training.

While the latter will help, even trained professionals have a hard time with this, because they're now shooting at a target that's trying to avoid getting shot at all costs. I just don't know how to make that any more clear to him, that marksmanship is not simple, and that the very real possibility that he may end up killing someone (even if it is self defense) is present by owning a firearm.

I sure hope he thinks long and hard about if he'd be able to live with himself knowing that he killed someone (even if it was a criminal)
 
It sounds to me as though he needs to do some soul searching as well as some mind set training. Only he can determine if his life is more important than the life of his assailant. He needs to take some force on force training. There are a few places that give this training. Basically you train with special training guns and go through senarios that mimic would might happen in the real world. After this if he is still interested in having a gun since he is familiar with the Beretta 92 series that is where I would start. The Beretta can be very accurate and there are some tweaks that can be done that make them a little better.
 
I remember him scoffing at the idea of having to have a defensive firearm in these "civilized" times, that having a gun promotes gun violence and the whole lot.
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Civilization is a thin veneer and only holds up so long as everyone involved voluntarily decides to act civilized. Underneath that veneer is the threat of brute force and under that is the actual use of it.
 
I grew up in an anti-home, and lost friends to gun related homicides and suicides while I was young. I know how easy it is to buy into the media driven anti-gun agenda. If you aren't comfortable with, or familiar with guns they can be scary.

In my experience the first step to overcoming that fear is through understanding that guns are simply a tool that (if you follow the rules) you have complete control over. I learned to shoot from a great instructor who taught me the rules. And who taught me that their inherent redundancy created safety.

I started with revolvers and shotguns. Then moved on. My advice is to respect your sibling's comfort levels and opinions, they're both evolving.
 
Start with a California Handgun Safety Certificate

Being from California he will need to get a California Handgun Safety Certificate. He especially needs to study chapter 5 regarding the legal use of lethal force. After he passes his test he can purchase a handgun. http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/hsc

California has some of the toughest gun control laws in the United States. California is #1 on the Brady campaign list of gun control states; even ahead of New York (#5) and New Jersey (#3)! http://www.bradycampaign.org/2013-state-scorecard?gclid=CNTM69e38L4CFYqXOgodZmUAbA

Good luck if he wants a CCW. In Riverside County it is not going to happen. Only 771 permits have been issued with a county population of 2.269 million in 2012. Self defense is not considered a valid reason for a CCW. Only having an active restraining order against someone who has made a death threat against you is considered a valid reason. :eek:
 
It seems You're probably in a better spot with your brother now, than I am. My younger brother is also quite anti-firearms (is that better) although he knows I have a few. Its been a struggle even to bring him to the range to teach him to shoot. I would hope it wouldn't take a burlary or physical assault to get him to change his mind.
 
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