Inventive idea for brass sorting

G

Gregory Gauvin

New member
An idea had came to me, randomly, and in theory, would work and be a nice little gismo to have - but creating one, I don't know where or how one would start.

For us reloaders who like to keep track of our brass by sorting them by the number if times they have been fired - we, usually collect the brass and bag it and label it. For whatever reason, whether it be knowing when they should be trimmed (4th time) or retiring the brass (10th time)...etc. Whatever floats the boat for the reason you record this data.

My idea was to have a small, little stamping device that could be placed on the breech face of a gun - obviously, this would have to be gun specific, as all guns and bolts are different, and a universal one would be ideal, but, impossible to invent. Essentially, the general concept here is that every time a case is fired in the gun, the gun itself puts a mark on the case head in some manner, so you can easily read how many times the case was fired.

The idea sounded good to me, but, I share it with you because I know in all practicality, I won't be patenting anything or getting around to figuring this one out. And because the brass case already has manufacturer stamps, the head is going to get all marked up, and if fired clocked in alignment with a hash mark or dot already put on, reading it would be moot.
 
Nifty idea actually. I think the easiest way for any push feed firearm would be to have the extractor cut a small notch on the rim during chambering. That would actually be simple enough to accomplish. Maybe a small spike on the bolt/breach face for anything that isn't puch feed that "dots" the head as its chambered? Possibly even modify the ejector to accomplish this. Anything that strikes the head along with the firing pin would be too complicated.
 
You can get a general idea how how many times a round been fired as case rims, least on most semi-autos, will mark up the rim. But an exact count isn't feasible. Just, whether it been reloaded a few times or a lot. Biggest problem no matter what approach is that the case is going to clock itself and possibly marking cases over a mark and giving a false read.
 
I sort in boxes marked 1x, 2x, 3x etc., when I get home from the range.

Then,

I work all brass from those boxes at the same time and after trimming, cleaning, etc., I use a sharpie to mark them, using horizontal marks, parallel to the rim. 1 mark for 1x, two marks for 2x etc.

I have found that if I run them in the tumbler for less than 2 hours, I can still faintly see my old marks thus verifying it again as 1x/2x/3x etc.

Yes I'm OCD........
 
I shoot 50rds of 223 in a seating and mark down in a book how many times I loaded that brass. I'm on 3rd reloading now of it.
 
Interesting idea, but I can see problems with "micro-stamping" brass. Would you have to index the round in the chamber so the marks would not be in the same place? Would this work if the ammo was used in different guns/chambers where number of firings varies with chamber dimensions? Personally, keeping track isn't such a big deal to me. The only guns I'm concerned with would be my Garand and/or my 308 Bolt gun...

Not saying it's a bad idea, just needs some work...:D
 
Yea I don't see it happening . The ideas is called micro stamping and in CA any new model of hand gun must have micro stamping or it can't be sold here .

Micro stamping research has had a huge budget to figure out how to get it to work and it still does not actually work reliably .

I have not researched the subject at all but off the top of my head the issue is in the head spacing or over pressure . This is me just thinking out load . If the stamping is on the bolt face and it indents the case head . Then you would be head spacing off the stamping rather then the bolt face . OK lets say that works how much would the stamping protrude out from the bolt face ? I'd think at least .003 . So when we bump are shoulders back .002 and the case will also move/stretch back .003 for the stamping . That's a total of a .005 head space clearance really . I think that would reduce case life quite a bit .

So lets reverse the idea and say the bolt face allows a small amount of brass from the head to flow into an indented space on the bolt face . You only get that brass flow with very high ( over pressured ) rounds . So again not really workable .

any thoughts ?
 
I agree. The idea was innovated. I didn't know micro stamping was or has already been invested in research. But, I know and understand all the problems involved to get this to actually work.

Keeping track of your brass, particularity with a bolt rifle is easy. But when I hit the range, generally, there are many, many, shooters who aren't reloaders and leave their brass behind. I pick up all the brass I possibly can. .223 is very abundant, as 9mm. I reload a lot of calibers, so, I grab all the range brass. No sense in leaving behind quality, once fired brass. But it gets all mixed up with my brass, generally, at least, with the most popular calibers.

I rarely find 7.7 Jap or 7.5 Swiss at the range. Actually...I never have, and most likely never will.

But I have a lifetime supply of 9mm, 40, 45, and 223.

Wish people would leave more 308 and 30-06 brass around.
 
How about this? Start from what you want. As you start your marking, you can put a small mark of acrylic craft paint on it as you work. Each time you l o ad, change colors. That stuff won't come off. You may wind up with even ten marks, just keep going with new colors. If you feel like you are building up, scraping off with a razor blade or a quick stuffing with medium grade sandpaper.
 
If it means that much to you, take a small triangular file and put a small notch on the rim of your cases.

Get a Sharpie (color of your choice - black, green, red, blue, whatever) and put a line across the base/primer of your brass.

Next time you come from the range, it's easy to pick out your brass because of the colored stripe across the base. Add another notch to the rim and you're ready to go again.
 
I didn't know micro stamping was or has already been invested in research.
Click to expand...

I don't remember all the details but over at the calguns forum it's been discussed quite a bit . From what I gather . One company/guy has sunk a lot of money into the idea ( likely others as well ) but this guys is heavily invested . He now is one of the main guys pushing for it's implementation because he's gotten the furthest and best results to date . I believe he holds the patent on his process so if it becomes law he will make a ridiculous amount of money .

Again I want to be clear . That's not necessarily all fact . Just what I remember what was being said and discussed a couple years ago on the internet :eek: ;).
 
Metal God has the general story. The guy designed a means of laser tagging. He approached a state congressman, who put forward legislAtion that all California ammo had to be stamped on both base of bullets and cases, mat thing numbers, packages had to be labeled with contents.

This was nuisance legislation, and partially intended just to gather publicist and possibly funding for the developer.

Marking a gun in numerous places that can transfer the mark to fired casings is a real stretch, but if it could be done, effectively, every round fired would in theory be traced to the gun and owner. I don't think that I need to say how ridiculous the idea that it will significantly impact crime is. Tag every gun made worldwide from now until hell freezes over, and it's probably never going to be terribly useful. But the whole idea is that if we can solve EVEN ONE killing it will be worth the millions spent. And in the meantime, a whole lot of people are going to make a lot of money implementing this.
 
One of my guns is already doing it. It is a 50-year old vz52 rifle in 7.62x45 Czech. The ejector makes a round dimple on the face of the brass head every time it fires. At first I could count the dimples. But after a while counting them became a chore, as they are on top of each other. I routinely shoot 20 firings with my hand loads.

-TL
 
Just my 2 cents:

There is a point where you have to step back and ask if you are really improving your life with such concerns.

Alternatively--only have 100 cases and work them completely through until you decide they have had enough, order another 100, and scrap the old ones.
Or, you can do like some benchrest shooters who only had 5-10 cases and loaded them at the range. They logged every shooting and every case was as close as possible to every other case.

I can just imagine some one with 5-20 containers of as-fired cases, each representing a different number of firings and matching head stamps. Then, there would be the containers of sized cases separated by number of firings and head stamp, and finally, all the loaded ammo, all separated by number of firings and head stamp.

Sorry, Life is too short and unless it is the National Finals, I really doubt it will make a big enough difference to be worth the hassle. Better to spend time behind the trigger than chasing your tail.
 
I agree. To me, being that meticulous with my brass is not a major concern. Life IS too short. As far as marking your brass with a sharpy...yes, I do this, when I fire 9x18 mak because I make my own cases from trimmed down 9mm Luger cases. I color the primers red so I can immediately distinguish.

The calibers I shoot like 9mm, 45acp, 40sw, .223....I don't need to know how many times they have been fired. Those pistol calibers (particularly 45ACP) will go and go until the mouths crack eventually when you size/bell the case, or more likely, you loose that brass.

My oddball rifle calibers, need not count either, as, I'll know when they need to be retired if the primer pockets feel loose or so on and so forth....

I was thinking this may be an idea for somebody who could invent something and make a lot of money. Like whoever invented those 3 trays that sort pistol brass (45, 40, 9mm, 380 and scrap 22 LR) etc. Simple idea. $40 or more for a set of those things. Probably $3 to produce. Somebody got rich. Because people buy them things. People, unlike me, who know, the dang 9mms are gonna get stuck in the 40s and 40s into the 45s and you'll be hand sorting anyways.

As far as micro laser markings to trace a fired case to a firearm for identification for criminal prosecution if a firearm is used in a crime...well...that's a lot of money down the tubes. It can't be too hard to figure out if John shot Joe with "that" gun if John is stupid enough not to have taken an oxyacetylene torch and melted that gun into a nugget of unidentifiable scrap, and bench grinned it down into powered metal shavings blown into the wind with Larry's grinder over Sally's house. So...I'm missing the point of that one. Can't be THAT difficult to figure out John shot Joe if John is stupid enough to have "that" gun found in a drawer at his house.

On the other hand, when a good idea is ever developed, produced, and utilized, like taggants in commercial explosives, we stop using them. There is a whole write-up about why we've done so, but, in the very least it could help in the lead to solving a bombing or least, trace to where such explosives were stolen and possibly help the Feds figure out who stole them. I know when taggants were used back in the 1970s? it solved one homicide as the compound was traced from its original manufacturer to the convicted bomber's purchase of them with his very name, date, and signature.

So, Timothy McVeigh builds a big bomb and takes down a building. We make buying fertilizer that can be used to make a bomb impossible to purchase because he did it, yet, acetone peroxide, a very powerful primary explosive, hard to detect, or nitroglycerin can be made easily and chemicals to do so readily available. Actually, many other powerful explosives can be made but no efforts were ever set forth to prevent this. I don't quite understand why some efforts are made in one area to prevent another occurrence, but no methodological means are made to prevent the chance of a that occurrence repeating itself simply by substitution of product. If so, why bother doing anything. I'm sure the fertilizer now available that has been effectively rendered unusable as an explosive not only costs agriculture more, but probably is less effective on crops.

In terms of guns - the AK-47 and AR-15 are the bad, very bad guns that only exist per design to be utilized in extremely violent crimes. So, we make them hard or impossible to own. Yet, the weapons used, that shot and killed the historic leaders of the centuries (m38 carcano, Remington 760 Gamemaster, M1934 Beretta, .32 Iver Johnson Revolver, Charter Arms .38 Special...etc) are all insignificant, non-lethal devices?

I suppose my point here is that it is still illegal to eat fried chicken with a fork, in Georgia. Seriously.
 
I have tried to keep brass associated with one gun, but I can't do it.

There was an old guy who lived alone and did not want to wash dishes, so he just bought new dishes.

I probably have 100 years worth of brass. I helped couple other guys move when they retired. They both had hoarded reloading gear like mine. Now the tons of their brass I moved is not getting used. They are now ordering Nosler and Lapua brass. They say it is better.

We don't have to make sense. It is a hobby.
 
I think I'll try using Sharpies white "Meanstreak" stick paint.

I use it to make my black reloading part ID's so I can see it.
071641851184lg.jpg

Like the RCBS Military Crimp Reamers pictured below:

Both have the ID facing up, and the one on the right is sooooo much better for my tired eyes now.

So....on my Winchester brass, for example, my plan is to paint the recessed "W" after the first load....."I" for the second, "N" for the third loading, Etc.....continue with the caliber description.

Still reloading them after that? ....add a red sharpie permanent marker and paint the now white "W" red........ then the "I" .....etc. :D

BTW, I just paint then use mineral spirits to clean up around the recesses....if you get to the red marker....alcohol cleans that up.

Nuther BTW....Meanstreak comes in other colors if you wish. All permanent.
 
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I shoot 20 rounds, after that the 20 cases are tumbled and then the 20 cases are placed back into the box they came from. I know; the question is “How does he do that?” The answer is simple, I use different case head stamps, there is no such thing around here as having too many different case head stamps. I built a 270, I loaded 120 rounds of ammo with 12 different head stamps with different bullets, powder etc.. I took the 12 different loads to the range with the rifle and shot all 120 rounds. It was not necessary to place the cases back into the boxes they came in because I tumble after shooting; but getting the cases back into the same box is never a problem because I sort by head stamp..

And then there is masking tape, masking tape can be used around the box, the masking tape can be used when writing down the information, when more room is required the reloader can make another wrap around the box with masking tape. Then there is an option when using the foam dividers, wrap the divider instead of the box. Before that fiber boxes were used, on fiber boxes reloaders used a ruler to lay out straight lines.

I have no infatuation with shooting a case until it will not stand up without support but I shoot with reloadrs that record the history of the case on masking tape.

F. Guffey
 
Truth be known, most of the time I do what Guffy does, but never only 20 at a time....and there's the problem. Because when you dump several hundred into the tumbler at a time.....unless you only do batches of once shot, twice shot, etc., you mix them all up and Headstamp won't help you. That's where marking the brass somehow would help!

Then there's the problem that the original boxes wear out.....I'm rough on them.

On my boxes, I use white labels in place of Guffy's masking tape. (used to do masking tape) Labels are printed on the computer, using Avery label software (free and you can design whatever you want), and I do make a line for Reload number, and lines for other reloading notes. I print a box full of labels so they are ready and waiting.

Then there is range brass and LC military brass (no original boxes)........and granted, the LC brass doesn't have a long name like Winchester to play with.....so punt on the paint idea....maybe you could notch the case rim on the stamped side! :rolleyes:

Most of my range brass is brand new once shot police practice fodder, in .40, and 9mm and sometimes .45acp. Again they toss their boxes.
 
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