Interesting point made in LTC class about 4473

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zxcvbob

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I took a MN License to Carry class on Saturday. One of the presenters was a retired police officer who currently owns a small gun shop. He recommended something kind of strange about when doing a face-to-face private gun sale. He said have the buyer fill out and sign a 4473 form, and you put the gun's make/model/serial/whatever on it. You don't call anything in (of course; because you can't), just file it away with your important papers. That way when the ATF, FBI, Sheriff, etc. knocks on your door at 2:00 AM asking about your gun which was just used in a crime, you have proof that you no longer own it and the name and address of the next person who did. And you can send them on their way and go back to bed :D

What do you think? If you were the buyer, would you be willing to fill out the form? If you're the seller, I guess you would cross out the section about calling the NICS.

I can't find current 4473's for download, but the form from a couple of years ago is available and should be good enough for this purpose.

I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not. The benefits are obvious. What are the hidden pratfalls?
 
That is misuse of the form, and could potentially get you in trouble.

ATF Form 4473 said:
This form should only be used for sales or transfers where the seller is licensed under 18 USC § 923.
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Using 4473s for non-FFL transfers could make it look like you were operating as an illegal dealer.
 
You could make up a similar form without using the official one.

I do know someone who does use a 4473 copy but I wonder if a buyer might be insulted. One could just ask if the person was legal to buy a gun and copy a driver's license. Signing that they were legal might do it to avoid liability but what do I know on that :confused:
 
If person done alot of face-to face transfers they could always use a multi-copy receipt book.Just have buyer sign receipt with DL or SS #.Both parties would have a copy.
My grandpa done this for years selling cattle,equipment,and on his rental properties.
 
I haven't had the chance to look at the actual statutes surrounding this issue, but two things occur to me: (1) the 4473 should be used only by FFLs, so I'm not sure if there's really any penalty for use of the 4473 by non-FFLs (as oppposed to "shall be used . . . "); and (2) despite #1, using them could make appear as though you are holding yourself out as a firearms dealer, which could be problematic. OTOH, I don't know of anything that says you can't use a 4473 as a guide for what sort of information to get from the buyer.

Edited to add: While I was typing this up, GEM pointed out what I was trying to: you can make up a form using the 4473 as a guide. Probably wouldn't hurt (from a CYA standpoint) to include language under which the buyer certifies that he or she is legally eligible to purchase and possess a firearm.
 
When I am buying or selling FTF I deal with fellow CHL holders, which means they are pre-screened. I don't need their personal info and they don't need mine.
 
There's a lot of info on the 4473 (if I recall correctly) that I would not give to "some guy" I'm doing a FTF sale with. Name, address, phone, license check should be plenty.
 
Doing a 4473 is overkill for a FTF transaction and if asked to do one I don't think I would. I would figure the guy I'm trying to deal with is a flake and I try not to deal with flakes.

If he wants the typical info for his records that is fine as I may want his also.

We don't need to make this hobby any harder than it is!
 
zxcvbob said:
What do you think? If you were the buyer, would you be willing to fill out the form? If you're the seller, I guess you would cross out the section about calling the NICS.
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If I wanted to fill out a 4473 I'd be buying from an FFL.

orionengr said:
When I am buying or selling FTF I deal with fellow CHL holders, which means they are pre-screened. I don't need their personal info and they don't need mine.
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I second the above. Show your CCW, but if the seller wants to write down my personal info, I'd walk away.
 
"when the ATF, FBI, Sheriff, etc. knocks on your door at 2:00 AM asking about your gun which was just used in a crime, you have proof that you no longer own it "

All you have is a form. The buyer probably showed you a driver's license he bought from a guy in a lumpy overcoat in an alley behind a bar.

Too much trouble for too little return.
 
If person done alot of face-to face transfers they could always use a multi-copy receipt book.
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If somebody gets to the point where they need to keep those kinds of records, phrases like "engaging in the business" and "repetitive sale of firearms for profit" become relevant.

I've done it a few times over the years, and I have a generic bill-of-sale that makes a record of make/model/serial number and the buyer's identifying information. If anything happens, that gives law enforcement enough to go on.
 
This is an intriguing question.

Am I culpable when a gun which I formerly owned is used in a crime? How do you prove you sold it? I have done a couple of FTF gun sales, and I have long since forgotten the names of the other parties. I asked to see their DL to prove that they reside in my state, but that is it. Always cash only too.
 
Am I culpable when a gun which I formerly owned is used in a crime?
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No.

All you have to do is make a reasonable effort to ascertain buyer is a resident of your state and not prohibited.

All you need to do is ask them, and have them reply.

Police LOVE paperwork.

It gives them something to subpoena.
 
When I buy or sell I never do paperwork.
It's not required in my state.

Just get enough faux 4473' and when the ATF comes to visit they'll be wondering if you're DEALING.

AFS
 
And where would you get these 4473s?

It's easier to just make up a bill of sale- have the person's name and address (checked against an official ID) along with yours on there. They get a copy, I keep a copy.

The buyer has proof of sale, I have paperwork showing where it went.
 
If I wanted to fill out a 4473 I'd be buying from an FFL.
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Agreed! Not because i wouldn't pass the phone call check, just because the law to require me to fill out this paperwork hasn't been shoved down the throats of American gun enthusiasts yet. If this becomes standard operating practice for enough people, it will end up being a part of the law.
 
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