Interesting logic

melster

Inactive
I mentioned to a couple of British expatriate coworkers the draconian handgun laws over there in the UK. Apparently, they were both antis.

I brought up the fact that the crime rate has risen over there after the ban.

One of them rebutted that by saying, "Well, it's still not as high as over here." Uh, excuse me, but that was not the point I was trying to make!

The other said, "That's because illegal handguns are being smuggled in. The penalties for owning a gun aren't high enough."

I had to keep from gagging. These two were software developer...pasty skinned from lack of sunlight, but of above average intelligence. Yet, they obviously were missing the point.

Lets see...you're saying that illegal guns are still coming in and are therefore responsible for the rise in crime. Uhm, excuse me, but that's because all the law-abiding gun owners turned their means of self-defense in! That's another issue that beauracrats trying to scrape for votes seem to overlook. Only the law-abiding people will be affected by a gun ban. The criminals won't care if you upped penalties for ownership. They've obviously accepted the consequences...that's why they've got the gun in the first place. You only get punished if you get caught.

Finally, I pointed out how grossly unfair it was to be required to turn in your expensive inventory without compensation.

One of the guys said, "Well, thats' because if you don't turn it in,you go to jail. You need to turn it in because it's illegal to own."

My comeback was, "What happens if politicians decide that drivers kill too many people? Therefore cars will be declared illegal and everyone has to turn their Porsches and Ferrarris in."

What was funny was that the guy actually understood that analogy.

Sheeple seem to brand weapons as evil, and therefore taking them away is ok. It is still someone's private property, duly paid for out of their blood and sweat.

Well, at least we can still keep our weapons here, no matter how restricted. Gotta fight for our rights, though.

Mel
 
There's no logic involved with their argument Mel. They are just two perfect examples of a high IQ and absolutely NO common sense.

Quite common with the so-called intelligensia in fact.



Take Care
 
When their work permits expire, let me know if they don't have funds to buy a ticket back to Merry 'ole England. I'll toss in a few bucks.
 
Another example of high I.Q., low common sense, was when I first started reading gun debate threads.

The one I remember the most, was a group of Hewlett Packard engineers trying(!?) to logically figure out if we, as a nation, should ban weapons or not. Their logic was
fatally flawed, and did not correlate with what was actually happening on the streets at all.
I guess some folks get their exercise from "jumping" to conclusions! I'm not knocking book smarts. But it is relatively useless without common sense.

Melster, you have a rare opportunity to educate them and entertain yourself. If the subject comes up again with the Brits, ask them these simple questions. Pin them down on this, and diplomatically make them give you a straight answer. Ask them,
1. "How do you control the actions of the lawbreaker, by enacting and enforcing laws
that only control the actions of the law abiding citizen?"

2."Do you understand the difference between a citizen and a subject?"

3."What specific gun laws has Great Britain enacted that has had a diect impact on the criminal element?"

4."According to the head of Scotland Yard, currently, ~13% of the police force is armed at all times. He expects all officers to be armed on a full time basis in the next 3-4 years. Why?"

5. "Currently, when a burglar breaks into the house of a British subject, what do Brits do when the burglar is attacking them or their wife, while waiting for the police to arrive?"

I have a whole different set of questions for Canadian or Japanese anti's, or just about any other nation. I know the flaws of many of their nations, so just ask if you need some snappy questions to refute their claims.

[This message has been edited by DAVID (edited 01-15-99).]
 
Please don't tar all us software geeks with the same brush. I've got my CCW, and FWIW, I work with a lot of immigrant s/w engineers, many of whom bought guns for home/family defense before they bought a lot of other household necessities, becasue they came from places where that was verboten and understood real well that 'free men own guns, slaves don't', from personal experience.

It's a shame about the Brits, though. They used to be a pretty adventurous bunch, built empires & stuff, but too much 'social welfare' has breed most of the warrior spirit outa 'em, seems to be happening to us, too. Some never learn, some never get the message.

The reality is that the verneer of civilization is just too damn thin. While we should all strive to make the world a better place, to ignore that reality is an imnvitation to disaster, and I've never heard of anyone who successfully sued for peace from the nealing position. M2
 
Melster, your comment "Sheeple seem to brand guns as evil and therefore taking them away is okay." is a key point.

A few years back, various City & Fed LEOs were searching housing projects in Chicago, without warrants, looking for guns. The ACLU got a Fed. Dist. Judge to issue a ceast and desist order. Gonna search, get a warrant, even in public housing.

Clinton jumped in, ordering AG Reno to "seek a way around these Fourth Amendment protections" since it was guns they were after. This was published even in the anti-gun Tallahassee Democrat.

I've bitched about this to various Liberal friends, looking for a reaction. Usually, it's like those Limeys: "Well, but they're looking for GUNS!"

The rejoinder that kills them is when I point out that what it really means is that Clinton thinks that poor folks and ethnic minorities have fewer Constitutional protections than "higher" class white folks.

It gets real quiet...

And, fortunately, AG Reno has at least a little more respect for the Fourth Amendment than her boss...Well, at least knowledge of what the courts would hold...
 
Having lived in the USSR for 14 years, I appreciate guns. In talking to the sheeple, we can always make the analogy to medicine. A few will die from malpractice or accidents, but millions will be saved. Same with personal weapons.

Below is my first draft of fiction meant to teach the use of firearms through anecdotale evidence...



---------------------------------
The rays of afternoon sun were warm on his skin. Toli lay still, enjoying the quiet. His aching muscles needed the rest. He felt drowsy but he resolved to stay awake awhile longer. In the tundra, warm and sunny weather did not come often, and this February thaw would not last past the sunset.
Sparse, wiry greens poked from under the snow. He reached out for a frozen granberry and chewed slowly. Somewhere in the distance a dog started to bark. The young man felt in his bag and extracted a crushed sandwich, a ragged slice of ham on dry crumbling bread. It was the first decent food he has seen in a while, but he was no longer hungry. For the first time in his adult life he felt unrushed.
Toli’s myopic eyes could not see much past the pale moss under his outstretched hand. Past the soft lines of the moss was a blur. He tried to remember what happened to his glasses. His left cheek still bore a scar from the fist that broke the lens and sent the wire frame flying into the fluffy snow.
When he got picked up late one night, a mad dash away from the three men was his first thought. A Nagant barrel shoved painfully into his back dissuaded him from trying. He still had not quite comprehended what happened until after a train bearing him and some hundred sixty others pulled up to a tiny cement platform in the middle of nowhere.
When he tried to ask where they were, a tired-looking guard hit him in the face, just like that. There was no malice in it, just an impersonal and efficient termination of small-talk. It was lucky that the other newcomers were as demoralized as he was: no one kicked him while he groped, futilely for the lost glasses. The guard that hit him herded everybody into a damp windowless barrack and locked them in.
During the months that followed, he learned much about cold, hunger and pain. In a camp of some two thousand , the thirty or so vokhri, armed guards, had somehow found time to mistreat everyone of them. By spring at least a third of them would probably be dead.
Toli has learned early on that he could not escape the beatings and tried to survive them the best he could. Ironically, while the loss of his glasses made him more vulnerable, it kept the guards from singling him out. The brutes equated glasses with education, and that they hated passionately. A blow that would be shrugged off by a healthy man would knock down any of the prisoners. However, with no fat or muscle left on their bones, they bruised easily and their tormentors were usually content with that.
No one knew where they where. The lax security certainly indicated lack of any populated areas nearby. While the six perimeter towers and two rows of wire kept the camp itself tight, the work details were only slightly supervised. A team of thirty or so prisoners, weak and without hope, was handled by two men. They knew that their herd had no place to run and the few who tried to walk off into the tundra could be shot at leisure. The flat ground for miles around offered neither cover nor shelter.
In hindsight, Toli thought absently, he should have made a run for it at the start. These days, always cold and hungry, and limping from a dog bite, he could not hope to get far. He has long since resigned to the idea of dying, but refused to commit suicide by climbing on the wire or mouthing off to a guard. His barrack was populated mostly by people like him, intellectuals torn from their comfy lives. They were mostly interested in he same thing he was, keeping low and staying alive.
This morning, the bitter cold that held every since he was taken in eased up. The sleepy two guards brought his detail out the underbrush where the road ended. Today they would add twenty meters of hard, packed dirt to it. With temperatures above freezing, life seemed almost tolerable for a change. The thin, bent figures with dull, heavy shovels spread out and went through the motions. They did not know or care where the road was going. They traded painfully inefficient labor for a starvation ration and another day of life.
Toli worked at the end of the line, with one of the guards leaning on one of the few trees in that land. Around noon, the man stood straight and started walking into the brush, tugging at his belt as he went. His rifle remained leaning against the tree trunk. He had no reason to worry: the starved, cowered zombies working behind him had never defied him or any other vokhr.
Toli did not think about his actions. He picked up the rifle and racked the bolt the way he has seen the guards do. A shiny brass cartridge arched out of the breech and another went in its place as the bolt returned home. He did not know enough to check the safety, but he got lucky. The long, awkward gun rested unsteadily in his arms when he saw the returning vokhr. Seeing a pale, scruffy prisoner with his rifle, the guard walked straight at him, one hand stretched out to seize the weapon.
Toli raised the gun to his shoulder and tugged on the trigger. The muzzle jerked up and the stock hammered savagely on the bony shoulder. Only the weight of the rifle kept Toli, deafened and stunned by the recoil from falling over backwards. He lowered the barrel and stared in front of him.
However ignorant of musketry, even he could not miss at two paces. The guard lay face down and a black stain on his padded jacket indicated where the bullet tore its way out. Amazingly, the other prisoners kept working, not even looking up. A gunshot usually meant a dead prisoner, an event unremarkable to survivors and other guards alike.
Toli thought of walking off into the undergrowth and trying to get lost. Deep down, he knew that would not work. The camp dogs were too good at tracking those few fugitives that managed to slip away from the guards and out of the range of the menacing perimeter towers. He turned and walked down the road, past the people working, toward the second guard.
While the shot failed to rouse the vokhr, the sight of a gangly, scruffy prisoner with a rifle did. Toli had not reloaded, but the guard declined to stick around long enough to learn that. He bolted, heading for the camp gate. Toli's poor eyesight had not picked out the guard till he started moving. He was surprised to see his adversary flee, as it did not even occur to him to shoot again. Without eyeglasses, that would have been an unprofitable exercise.
The young man sat down on the moss by the side of the half-finished road. He let the rifle fall away and reached into the guard's khaki knapsack. He was idly curious about possessions of someone who, for months, has had absolute power over him. The first item was prosaic enough, a crusty ham sandwich wrapped in wax paper. Then out came two heavy metal tins, unpleasantly oily to the touch. It was not until his eyes traversed to the submachine gun abandoned by the vokhr that he understood what these drums were.
Toli stuffed everything back into the knapsack and got up, barely able to support the weight of his trophy. Then a siren started off at the camp. He started slowly into the tundra. For now the gray bare branches and low evergreens offered some cover, but soon he would have to walk in the open. Behind him, prisoners never stopped poking at the frozen ground.
"Alex must be in an orphanage now," he thought irrelevantly. "They probably got Mila the same day."
Suddenly, it seemed pointless to even try to get back, had it even been possible. The winded barking was getting closer. Toli sat awkwardly into the snow. He could see faint shapes behind the branches, could hear the dogs and the angry men hunting him. Most clearly, with his eyes perpetually focused up close, he could see the dark metal of the gun he had dragged along. He pulled the bolt handle back as he had with the rifle. It stayed back and would not budge.
The few runaways who were not shot at once died slowly. He did not want to die that way. Standing up with this weapon would surely draw mercifully efficient fire. When Toli tried to get up, he could not. What little strength he had, was all used up. He rested the drum on his knees, pointing in the general direction of the camp, and waited, sunlight warming his pallid skin. Somewhere in the back of his mind was a timid regret that he would not enjoy this for long.
The party of five followed their dog to his hideout. When they saw their prey, mere ten paces separated them. Toli straightened up without rising and tried to look menacing. Something snapped under his right hand and a loud report issued from the gun. The recoil was so slight that he was not, at first, aware of having fired. One of the pursuers fell, the rest rushed for cover. The German Shepherd tried to rush him but dropped a few steps shy of its goal, as he tracked it deliberately with the vibrating muzzle.
In the brush ahead a revolver barked. He pointed at the sound and squeezed the trigger, seeing empty cases move rapidly up and to the right, branches in front gently falling. His ears were ringing, but he could still sense receding footsteps. The gun in his hands kept shaking a second longer and then stopped. He let it go and heard the hiss of vaporizing snow.
Another attempt to walk came to naught, as his knees were now weak with fear. Before he could wonder why he no longer felt resigned, one of the guard towers opened up blindly, long rays of tracers stabbing into the bleak landscape. A little less loud and faster, submachine guns joined in from closer range. They could not see him but did have ammunition to spare. Sharp pain in his side showed that the approach worked. Warmth spread immediately, followed by feeling of weakness, worse than anything before. This is where he would have to die, in a shallow depression in the snow, like a shot-up hare .
The short day was coming to an end. In the waning light, Toli tried to make his gun work again. He figured out how to change the drum just as the guards advanced again, a thin skittish line of people used to bullying but not to combat. The warm stain on his side has long since grown cold and even more painful than before. No, he was not going anywhere.
Just as he had thought, they did not expect him to stick around. The search party planned to form a skirmish line later, when they caught up with the fugitive. They did not expect an ambush. This time he emptied an entire drum without stopping, feeling the pleasant warmth spreading from the metal. When darkness fell, the land was awash in flashes, soldiers shooting blindly while Toli , drifting in and out of consciousness, was saving his last drum.
They did not come for him that night. The next day, which was bitterly cold, the tower fired long, aimless bursts at the tundra and fell quiet again. The drifting snow covered up the footprints and spent brass, as if nothing had happened.
 
Mike in VA,
I'd be the last one to do any painting! I'm a developer myself, and I wouldn't want to tarnish our collective reputations any further! Actually, just to let you in on a secret, I do a lot of firearms and urban warfare training by playing Quake 2!!! (oops...try not to throw me too much flak about that one!)

David,
Thanks for the ideas...I can now go back into the fight with a loaded weapon. Didn't have much ammo before.

Before I got into lurking here and at other BBs, I didn't know how badly our rights were being eroded. I'm shocked to see how our fellow citizens are letting elitists ride roughshod over OUR rights. Not just gunners rights. These are all our rights.

Take a stand not because you're anti or pro. Take a stand because it's right. Work together to solve the problem --crime and safety. Hearing prosecuters crowing arrogantly that if they can't use the law to ban guns, then they'll sue manufacturers to bankruptcy makes me sick. Isn't that a blatant attempt to circumvent the Constitution? Why isn't the judicial arm stepping in and slapping some prosecutors around? Why is my tax money supporting these guys?

This is still a great country and I wouldn't trade any other for it. Let's try to keep America great.
 
Mike in VA,
I too work in the DC area and have found that the large number of the IT types that I work with are 'gun friendly'. They are either gun owners, want to buy's, or express and interst to go to the range with me. Those in the last group are the people that I concentrate on. I make arrangements to take them and let them try a variety of types, handgun, shotgun, and the dreaded semi-auto (aka assault rifle). Most if not all of my guests have either become shooters of some sort or have expressed the desire to return and shoot some more (this may be a product of being a cheap way to kill an afternoon. My experience is, that they are mostly young(er) than myself, not hard to meet that criteria, and above average intellegence, they are open to new ways of thinking and have not bought into the government line, guns are bad. We as gun owners, and concerned with our Constitutional Rights, need to cultivate this attitude.
Would you like to get together sometime at your range or mine and make some noise. Drop me an email if you like.

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Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.

-- H.L. Mencken
 
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