Interesting Idea. Dont know if its a good or bad....

Wildcard

Moderator
Judges could be fired for bench decisions
Voters may give panel of citizens power to enforce accountability

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic … E_ID=51998


Voters in South Dakota decided they didn't like the liberal leanings of former U.S. Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, a Democrat, and voted him out of office in 2004. Then a year later they had their state legislators ban abortion.

Now comes the newest statement on morals and conservative values from the roughly 800,000 people who live between Nebraska and North Dakota, Minnesota and Wyoming: A South Dakota Judicial Accountability plan that would require judges to follow the Constitution.

No more "discoveries" like the U.S. Supreme Court's revelation of a "right" to sodomy, such as was featured in a Texas case not too long ago, plan supporters say.

Bill Stegmeier, the organizer for what will be Amendment E on this November's election ballot in South Dakota, said the idea comes from a national organization promoting accountability for judges, but his is a state effort that has just come together.

"Actually, we had the timing right. Look at all the news, even national news, about judges out of control," Stegmeier told WND.

The plan is fairly simple: A constantly rotating panel of South Dakota residents chosen randomly from voter registration lists would serve as a "super" grand jury. Anyone with a complaint against a judge that isn't resolved by the judiciary could come to the panel.

Panel members would have the power to review cases and circumstances, and, if they determine it's appropriate, strip a judge of his immunity for his decisions in court.

The plan already has the support of nearly 47,000 voters, because that's how many people signed Stegmeier's petitions even though state officials confirmed it and stop counting at 33,456.

Not surprisingly, lawyers are campaigning hard against the proposal. But they appear to be facing an uphill battle.

"There's been a poll taken by our opposition, and it leaked out," Stegmeier said. "Three-to-one were in favor of the amendment."

The plan doesn't replace or eliminate any present procedure, it just adds another layer of protection for those who have been harmed by the system, he said.

And he believes it will be implemented smoothly.

"We don't think there's going to be a lot of chaos. Judges will start thinking about what they do, and ask, 'Am I violating someone's rights?'" Stegmeier said.

In 2004, voters chose Sen. John Thune, who campaigned on his conservatism, to replace Daschle, even though he had served as the Senate Majority Leader, a powerful position that could have been used to benefit the state.

Then in 2005, the Legislature banned abortion, although that has not been implemented because of challenges to the law, and it also will live or die in an initiative vote in November's ballot.

It's primarily at agriculture state, "not a big-money state by any stretch," Stegmeier said. But residents appear to be willing to look at the issues of import, and go ahead with decisions.

The state presently has a judicial commission, which is made up of two judges, three lawyers and two appointees selected by state officials.

Stegmeier believes that large contributions to his opposition from those such as Citibank, an insurance lobby and law firms across the country are happening because there's a real fear in the established system that if South Dakota's plan works, other states will jump on board.

A national Judicial Accountability Initiative Law group is working to do just that. National organization founder Ron Branson seemed excited by the coming election in South Dakota.

"The wick has been lit and the explosion is forthcoming," he said in an announcement confirming the issue would be on the ballot.

"The South Dakota Secretary of State has ceased counting the number of signatures turned in, saying that they have already reached the requisite number of 33,456 qualified signatures," he wrote.

The South Dakota plan's website details the proposal, including a couple of barbs sure to raise the concern of judges: It would be a three-strikes-your-out plan, with the potential for judges to lose not only their jobs but a part of their retirement pay. It also would be funded by deducting money from judges' salaries.

It also empowers the super grand jury members to consider cases retroactively.

"Right now, there is no effective way to hold a judge accountable should he violate a person's rights in 'his' courtroom," the organization's website promotes. "Amendment E will change that. A judge SHOULD be accountable should he violate a person's rights, either on purpose or even by mistake."

Those groups who have announced opposition range from the State Bar and governor to local school boards.

"It seems that a lot of people working for or with government … just don't seem to want to be held accountable," Stegmeier's group said.

He said he expects the State Bar to spend $1 million or more to campaign against the plan.

Branson noted that there's also been formal opposition to South Dakota's plan from groups in Texas, California, Oregon, Canada, Iowa and New York.

One case cited as typical of situations that need attention, the national lobby said, surprisingly is on behalf of a former judge.

According to its web report, a former Brooklyn judge claims he's being held against his wishes in a Bronx nursing home by a court order, while a court-appointed guardian is running his financial empire involving a number of different incomes.

"I'm gonna tear their asses up when I get out," John Phillips, 82, told a reporter via tape recorder carried in to him by a friend, since he also is not allowed to get telephone calls.
 
I like it, but not because it could lead to more laws going "my" way.

I like it because it would tend to stop the incredibly loose "interpretations" of the Constitution where there are absolutely no words or phraseology to suggest something is or isn't Constititutional, but some two-bit lower court judge takes it upon him/herself to CREATE a new law citing something in the Constitution that does not truly support their "opinion". Once that happens, especially when done by the Supreme Court, that "opinion" becomes "precedence" which then is assumed to be "law" which then is assumed to BE the Constitution itself.
Over time, "precedence" takes precedence over even the Constitution itself which is where the real damage lies. Maybe I'm wrong, but I always thought that the Supreme Court was supposed to "protect" the Constitution, and not interpret it beyond what is actually in it.

This separation of church and state nonsense is just one of the issues that has gone too far in that it was NOT the Constitution that declares that a bible can't be displayed on public property. It was a Surpreme Court of that day's political persuasion that CREATED these new laws.

I like my Constitution simple because as is widely known, the devil is in the details, and the more judges stray from the Constititution itself, the more devilish details they like to throw in.

Carter
 
Cdh...

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

I believe that means our government is not supposed to favor one religion over another or prohibit one religion over another. I don't think the Constitution makes any reference to any diety either. In a nation of people of many cultures and religions, a secular nation is a much better idea as it doesn't cater to one particular religious group. I never exactly understood why many people make the statement that, "The Founding Fathers were Christian, and so this nation should be." Even though the Constitution clearly states no favoritism for any religion when it comes to government. Though they may have been Christian during their time period, they understood the value of being a secular nation in order to promote equality for future generations and foreigners in the hopes of social progress in this country.


Epyon
 
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Where is the word "favoring" in the 1rst Amendment?

The key word is "establishing" which clearly means that the government shall not DICTATE that one religion or another is to be declared to be THE religion of the nation.

Another key word you conveniently leave out is in the second sentence; "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

Forcibly removing the bible monuments that have been on public property for decades without any complaints IS the PROHIBITION of the free excercise thereof.

As is so usual by those with an agenda, they chose to pick and choose the parts of the Constitution they do not like and ignore them in favor of those that they do.

And THAT, my friend, is exactly what radical judges do when they "interpret" the Constitution to their own political and social liking which is EXACTLY why I see no problem with a body of people being allowed to at least review judges decisions and compare those decision (and very importantly, the judges arguments for why they made those decisions), to the Constitution itself.

Carter
 
the government shall not DICTATE that one religion or another is to be declared to be THE religion of the nation.

Exactly---has nothing to do with favoritism of 1 religion over another. On the original subject, I am in favor of being able to remove ANY judge---left or right----for taking advantage of their position in putting in their own political agendas of what they think it should be. There are a few "crazy" judges out there and the fact that they can never be removed is scary to say the least.
 
Epyon and others,

I never exactly understood why many people make the statement that, "The Founding Fathers were Christian, and so this nation should be."


Please read carefuly a portion of the following speech from George Washington's farewell address to the NATION;

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness -- these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle
 
So, a randomly chosen panel will get to decide what the Constitution really means. That should work out well.
 
So, a randomly chosen panel will get to decide what the Constitution really means. That should work out well.

Well, take your pick; either a single person (judge) with an agenda who has been given the POWER to subvert the Constitution on a social whim of their own... or a larger group of random people who can discuss the SPECIFICS of the ARGUMENTS that the judge used for his "decision" and apply those arguments against the Constitution and see what is or isn't Constitutionally based.

Of the two, I like the latter.

Having said that, as far as I know, there is absolutely no provision in the Constitution for this kind of oversight. So what is being proposed is basically UN-Constitutional all by itself.

Carter
 
Don H said:
So, a randomly chosen panel will get to decide what the Constitution really means. That should work out well.
Sounds more like a randomly chosen group will be deciding whether the majority agrees that a judge's decision is unconstitutional. I like it. Maybe it will eventually take hold in Alabama. The Constitution says what it means and means what it says, what's to interpret. It's not written in a foreign language.
 
Cdh...

I didn't leave out the second portion of the sentence regarding the prohibition of a religion it's also bold from my quote.

Now by public property do you mean something like a courthouse or a park? Let me ask you this, isn't displaying a Bible monument showing favoritism if it's on a court or any other government related property? What if someone wanted some sort of monument to Islam in a courthouse? There'd be a huge public outcry about it. Now lets toss in other religions, Wicca, Buddhism, Hinduism, Native American faiths, etc. I hope you see where I'm trying to go with this. The point I'm trying to make is that if the government is to NOT favor and at the same time NOT prohibit a religion, then it should not have any religious indications to go with it. If a government were to prohibit a religion, legislation would be passed banning that religion, just because a monument is removed from public property doesn't not equate to banning of a religion. People are free to worship as they see fit, but I feel that publically it shouldn't be pushed on others of different or no faiths especially by a country that is supposed to symbolize freedom to all regardless of who or what they worship.


MoW, I've read that speech before, but it was good reading it again. You have to remember a good number of the Founding Fathers were Deists including Washington,(look up Deism, its beliefs are VERY flexible, and is based on PERSONAL faith not organized faith.) I believe that in that speech he meant that people should have some sort of spirituality regardless of faith in order to find meaning and improve their lives on a personal level. Also in that excerpt you gave me, he makes no mention of God, or Jesus etc. he doesn't even mention any form of a diety at all. (In fact I believe he only says "I beseech the Almighty" near the end of his speech, but doesn't make any reference as to a faith per se, one could argue Christian, yet others like me would argue Deist.)

Point being, I don't believe removing religious materials from PUBLIC and GOVERNMENT property is considered banning a religion. If the government were to say, "You can't have your church/mosque/synagouge/temple displaying its symbol on its property." that would be prohibition, and then I would have to disagree on that case.


Epyon

EDIT: CDH, I agree that Ruth Bader Ginsberg is a total nutcase, chasing a pipe dream with no real goal to help further freedom.
 
I certainly hope these randomly picked people got more constitutional learnin' than I did. My education ended in 1974 after having READ the preamble a few times in a high school, I was told by my ex-hippie teacher what it meant. Now class, turn the page and we'll read about the cotton gin!
 
My objections were mainly based on the pool the panel would be chosen from. As far as I know, to be a voter it is only required that a person be a citizen and be breathing (although I've heard that those requirements are optional in some localities). I would prefer to have those doing the reviewing meet a competancy standard that would at least give me some reassurance that they have the mental capacity to dress themselves and pursue a rational thought. Otherwise chaos will ensue.
 
littlmak you too?

My education ended in 1974 after having READ the preamble a few times in a high school, I was told by my ex-hippie teacher what it meant. Now class, turn the page and we'll read about the cotton gin!

Yeah I remember that, how come we never learned to memorize the Amendments? To dumb the public down and further allow power to be consildated to the few. Although I'd have to say my teacher who only made us recite the preamble and then move on was a conservative. Go figure, Democrats and Republicans ARE the same.


Epyon
 
Last edited:
Epyon,

MoW, I've read that speech before, but it was good reading it again. You have to remember a good number of the Founding Fathers were Deists including Washington

Absolutely, 100% false. From George Washington's own words---

"…be merciful to me,O God, and pardon me for Jesus Christ sake… Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me; and hast given me assurance of salvation…"(

A full text regarding our founding fathers and deism---

http://www.faithofourfathers.org/essays/rewrittinghistory.html
 
Um, folks? I thought the point of the thread was Judicial Accountability, not whether or not the founders were Christians or Deists?

To get this back on track, state level Jurists could come under this gun, as the federal laws controlling the Judicial system would not apply at the state courts.
 
The Constitution says what it means and means what it says, what's to interpret. It's not written in a foreign language.

It's really not that simple. For example, if you truly want to take this stance prepare to give up your right to free speece because that is NOT explicitly stated in the consitution anywhere, but rather an interpretation of what IS written in the constitution.

(note: the 1st amendment states that CONGRESS shall not infringe on our right to free speech. It does not, in any way, prevent state govenments from taking away said right.)
 
Axion- It may not explicitly state in the con. that states dont have the right to limit free speech but any constitional issue of that nature would have to be approved by the congress.

SW
 
Sounds more like a randomly chosen group will be deciding whether the majority agrees that a judge's decision is unconstitutional. I like it. Maybe it will eventually take hold in Alabama. The Constitution says what it means and means what it says, what's to interpret. It's not written in a foreign language.

Better watch out what you wish for, you might get it. The Constitution was written to protect the minortity from the majority. It seems to me a majority of people at one time supported segregation and Jim Crow laws. Were they right because they were the majority?

Remember, we are all gun owners here, and we are a minority in this country.
 
Back
Top