Instant Check, Permanent Record

Oatka

New member
Not much new, but it encapsulates the argument for archival purposes when the next anti talks about "reasonable" gun control.
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment081000a.shtml


Instant Check, Permanent Record
The NICS is hardly reasonable.

By Dave Kopel, Dr. Paul Gallant & Dr. Joanne Eisen of the Independence Institute

When he questioned the meaning of "is," Bill Clinton gave Americans a crash course on the fine art of parsing words, and validated their deep mistrust of government.

A July 13 ruling of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit now adds to Clinton's infamous legacy.

In 1993, Congress enacted the "Brady Bill," while providing that the Brady waiting period would sunset in five years, to be replaced with the National Instant Check System (NICS) for all retail gun purchases. Although prior law and the 1993 law both forbade the federal government from using the NICS to register gun owners, Janet Reno and the FBI immediately began using the NICS for gun registration.

The National Rifle Association sued, and eventually lost a 2-1 decision before the District of Columbia Court of Appeals. This loss should be a caution to everyone who believes that moderate gun controls can still protect Second Amendment rights.

Under the NICS, when a firearm purchase is made through a licensed dealer, that dealer must submit detailed information about the prospective purchaser to the FBI before the firearm is transferred.

The NRA lawsuit argued that the law requires Instant Check records to be destroyed immediately upon "proceed" or "denial" of firearm purchase. But the FBI wants to keep that information for six months. And thanks to the use of computer backup tapes, information that is erases from a particular computer after six months may exist on backup tapes forever.

When the NICS law was enacted in November 1993, Section 103 (i)(2) made it clear that the names of firearm purchasers were not to be retained in the system: "No department, agency, officer, or employee of the United States may...use the system established under this section to establish any system for the registration of firearms (or) firearm owners..." The same prohibition against federal gun registration also appears in the 1986 Firearms Owners Protection Act.

Nevertheless, Judges David S. Tatel and Merrick B. Garland, both Clinton appointees, maintained that Federal law "does not prohibit all forms of registration." Actually, the federal statute explicitly bans any registration.

In arguing that FBI retention of information does not constitute registration, the two Clinton-appointed judges noted that the FBI list does not contain the names of every U.S. gun-owner, and that the retention of names was not intended to be permanent. These arguments ignore the obvious fact that partial or temporary registration is still a "system of registration."

Dissenting Judge David B. Sentelle, a Reagan appointee, opined that Congress was perfectly clear when stating it wanted the NICS records destroyed – and destroyed immediately, not six months later. "The Attorney General [Janet Reno]'s position," Sentelle wrote, "strikes me as reminiscent of a petulant child pulling her sister's hair. Her mother tells her, 'Don't pull the baby's hair.' The child says, 'All right, Mama,' but again pulls the infant's hair. Her defense is, 'Mama, you didn't say I had to stop right now.'"

The experience of Canada, Great Britain, and Australia shows quite plainly that gun registration precedes gun confiscation. The late Nelson T. "Pete" Shields, the Founding Chair of Handgun Control, Inc., explained:

The first problem is to slow down the number of handguns being produced and sold in this country. The second problem is to get handguns registered. The final problem is to make possession of all handguns and all handgun ammunition—except for the military, police, licensed security guards, licensed sporting clubs, and licensed gun collectors—totally illegal." (Richard Harris, A Reporter at Large: Handguns, The New Yorker, July 26, 1976, p. 58.)

In this context, the focus of the gun prohibition groups on total gun registration makes great sense, even though registration has been proven useless around the world as a crime-fighting tool.

Thus, we have the current effort to close the non-existent "gun show loophole," which will simply set the stage for a complete ban on unregistered firearms transfers, even among family members. (This is currently the law in California and Canada.)

The National Instant Check System was touted by its proponents as a "reasonable" law for keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. But just how "reasonable" is it to allow the federal government to illegally compile a list of gun-owners? And just how
"reasonable" is it for citizens to trust a federal government that, time and again, has proven itself untrustworthy?





[This message has been edited by Oatka (edited August 10, 2000).]
 
Now why would the FBI want to keep a record of lawful gun purchases? When the law enforcers are the lawbreakers what do you do?

"When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice:
but when the wicked rule, the people groan."
(Proverbs 29:2)
 
Bought a Colt 7" single action yeaterday. Showed my Texas CHL, no nics. filled out the idiot form but they don't go anywhere until the shops goes out of business and I'll prob be dead by then. Texas knows I have guns via the CHL, but they don't know what guns anymore.

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Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club
68-70
 
Its the "I'm sorry sir, but I sold that firearm 4 years ago." :rolleyes:

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God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!
 
Think that store will be around in 20 years?

Another deal is that, by cancelling his FFL and getting another, a dealer can stop having to respond to traces for all of his old sales - at the cost of handing in the yellow forms.


Battler.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Its the "I'm sorry sir, but I sold that firearm 4 years ago."[/quote]

Which is what the "closing of the gunshow loophole" is really all about.

They want every transfer tracked, recorded and checked.

dZ
 
When I went to purchase my Bushmaster AR15 I was one excited man. I was thinking ONLY of the rifle. When I filled out the NICS form I stupidly put down my SS number. I regret that. I've never put my SS number on the NICS form for anything else I've bought.
Also, I wonder where the form I filled out 22 years ago to buy my Chief's Special went when the shop went out of business shortly thereafter.

Bah!!!
Will

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Mendacity is the system we live in.
 
Battler, I don't know if that store will be around in 20 yrs, but after three heart attacks, I seriously doubt that I will!


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Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club
68-70
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WLM:
When I went to purchase my Bushmaster AR15 I was one excited man. I was thinking ONLY of the rifle. When I filled out the NICS form I stupidly put down my SS number. I regret that. I've never put my SS number on the NICS form for anything else I've bought.
Also, I wonder where the form I filled out 22 years ago to buy my Chief's Special went when the shop went out of business shortly thereafter.
[/quote]

Wait? Can you do that? I know (or at least, its my understanding of the law) that in Georgia, I have to fill out an NICS form whenever I purchase a firearm. However, if I have a CCL permit, it does not have to be submitted. I think the dealer still has to retain a copy of it "for records" for X number of years. That last part I'm not sure of.. but I'm fairly certain about not having to submit a NICS check if I already have a CCL permit.

Can anybody back this up?



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God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!
 
WLM, that form is in a huge ATF warehouse still patiently waiting for someone to come and unpack it and look at it. They are literally decades behind on filing.

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Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club
68-70
 
I was told that when you buy, buy two guns at a time. When they call to check on you they give the serial number of a gun you are buying, but only one of them. If you pass then you would be able to buy the other and the FBI only knows of the one they checked on. I know this sounds too far out, and it might be, It was just one thing I heard from a dealer.

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"We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force."

--Ayn Rand, in "The Nature of Government"

http://hometown.aol.com//jsax13/web.html
 
I think the multiple gun purchase provision applies when both guns are handguns. If one of the weapons is a longgun, this form does not have to be filled out. At least, that's the way it's been explained to me.

KaMaKaZe--Whenever I purchase a firearm here in Georgia, I present Concealed Carry Permit. The only form I have to fill out is the standard BATF 4473.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by parabellum:
KaMaKaZe--Whenever I purchase a firearm here in Georgia, I present Concealed Carry Permit. The only form I have to fill out is the standard BATF 4473.[/quote]

Thats sounds right. I think I got my forms backwards. Lord knows they'res to many of those damn things I'm sure.


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God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!
 
Greetings,

1.The Government conducted Radiation Tests on Human subjects in the 1950's without their consent.

2.The Government also conducted experiments on Humans with Biological and Chemical weapons without their consent.

3.Social Security Numbers of Military personnel was public for some time, could be found on the internet and were misused by criminals.

4.A President, who is supposed to set a moral and ethical standard to the world, lies in court, and gets away with it.

5.A criminal can sue a victim for having shot him.

6.My CCW License is not valid in Post Offices,Federal Property,and in Schools and at Games not to mention a host of other places.

7.The Government can decide what guns and ammunition I may be allowed(or not)to buy.

The Government has a long history of illegal activities under its belt. What we are facing is only a small piece of the pie.
Regards,
Anand.
 
Anand, next time you're in the post office, read the poster they have about not carrying a firearm on their property. It lists the law and 2 exceptions. In the full law, there are 3 exceptions. The third says "or entering the property while conducting lawful business". I don't think that there is any case law on this exception yet, but to me carrying while having a state issued permit and going in to get my mail IS a lawful business. Of course I might be in the pen next week, too.

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Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club
68-70
 
After buying my first gun in Churchill County, NV I filled out all the forms and such, waited about 2 hours, then walked out with my Ruger P90 that day.

The next time I went in that place to buy another handgun, filled out all the forms, made the phone call, they told me I would have to wait till they got a call back.

Before the lady hung up the phone, I said "Tell whoever is at the other end of that phone that I have an 'file' with the ATF" the lady then repeated what I said into the phone and 45 seconds later was told I take my gun home.

"we don't keep records" is a bunch of fuc**ng
bulls**t!!!!!

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"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property...Horrid mischief would ensue were the law abiding deprived the use of them" --Thomas Paine, 1775

www.2ndamdlvr.org
www.2ndamdlvr.homestead.com/secondamendment.html
 
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