Information for the rifley challenged

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LJBerg

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Hi folks. I'm writing a murder mystery and need some help concerning hunting rifles. Here are my questions::confused:

What is the most popular hunting rifle?
What will the bullet do if someone is shot at close range, across a desk, in the stomach?
Can you see the muzzle blast and hear it from the second story glass room across a four-lane street?
Will the bullet shatter a window made of safety glass or just make a hole in it or will it have any effect at all?

These may sound like dumb questions, but I don't know a thing about rifles so any help will be appreciated. Thanks.
 
There is no one single rifle that everyone uses or even one caliber, but 30.06 is a very traditional and common hunting round. Weatherby, Ruger, Wichchester, Remington… Pretty much any gun manufacture out there makes a hunting rifle, but I'd say a Remington 700 is one of the more popular hunting rifles. Hunting rifles are very loud and could certainly be heard in a building across the street. You would only see the muzzle blast if you happened to be looking though the window and it was low light (like night time). Usually during the day you will not see a muzzle flash unless you are looking right at it. so if you said "he saw the muzzle flash at noon out the corner of his eye", that is not very realistic. If you said "he was trying to read the lettering on the glass window at night and saw the flash", then that is more realistic. If you shot someone in the stomach at close range (or any range) it would be very messy. Assuming it was a common lead nosed bullet, it would make a relatively small entry wound and would come out the other side of the body and remove a good chunk of of flesh. A rifle bullet will go though just about any glass. Even most "bullet proof" glass can't stop a rifle round. Usually bullet proof glass/vests will only stop pistol rounds, not rifle rounds. A 30.06 can shoot though 1/4 inch thick steel, maybe more depending on the bullet and steel being shot.


Hope i helped a little. Good luck with the book.
 
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I was typing up an answered and was distracted by customers, The Rifleer responded while I was away.

We must be on to something because I was going to say that that the .30-06 is unquestionably an iconic hunting round and the Remington 700 has got to be one of the most common rifles ever made.

So far as would you hear the shot and such, there are far too may variables to say for certain but it's certainly in the realm of "plausible". A rifle shot contained by a sealed building (windows and doors shut) is not going to be recognizable from a great distance though, particularly with a great amount of ambient noise. My father once fired his 30-06 out a slightly open window (maybe 4 inches open) from maybe 4 or 5 feet inside, I was outside, not more than 20 feet from the house, and I would not have recognized it as an unquestionable gunshot. It mostly sounded like a single, huge "WHOOMP!" from a really large subwoofer. Inside, is another matter. My step-mom almost beat him to death.:D

In regards to the anatomical effects, using a traditional copper jacketed, lead-core hunting bullet, it's going to be nasty. Entrance hole not much bigger than caliber diameter (.308 inches for .30-06) but the exit could be several inches, depending on what exactly was hit. Bone fragments (if applicable) and the hydrostatic shock would make a mess. Soft organs, like the lungs, would be heavily damaged by the shock wave.

"Safety glass" just means that it has a plastic layer to prevent fragments flying all over. The bullet would pass through easily. It might shatter the whole piece and leave it hanging in it's place, held by the plastic, or it might fall out of it's frame. It might only blow a hole in it and leave "spider web" looking damage, size and scope is impossible to predict.
 
To Brian Pfleuger and The Rifleer. Thanks a lot. Yes, your information does help. I want to make the murder scene and weapon as real as possible. If I have more questions may I get in touch with either of you?

Oh, I do have a question. After being shot, would the victim die immediately?

Thanks again.
 
Will the bullet shatter a window made of safety glass
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Brian describes laminated safety glass as used in vehicle windshields.
You would probably get a hole surrounded by a fracture pattern.

Tempered glass as used in plate glass doors and windows or car side windows will shatter into a zillion quarter inch fragments, or chunks with a crack pattern that will break into small fragments if knocked about much. A spring punch will shatter tempered glass, never mind a bullet.

Common window glass with no lamination or tempering might show a hole, might shatter.


A victim of gunshot might die immediately, linger on a while, or recover.
All depends on the exact placement of the bullet, how quick he gets treatment of a wound not immediately lethal, and how just plain tough he is, both physically and mentally.
 
Not neccesarily, most mammals don't die instantly...... Depending on the location hit.

Depending on the cartridge used, hydrostatic shock can incapacitate instantly. Dying is a Process.... Most cases a lot of spasms and convulsions will occur. I don't wanna get to graphic here. A gunshot is trauma to the body so it really depends On the point of impact on the body. Far away from the cns many things can cause death; loss of blood, aspiration, sucking chest wound. Near the cns, death should come quickly.

Thanks for explaining the reason for your question.
 
If the shot was directly through the center it would sever the spinal cord, probably wouldn't kill instantly but would most likely paralyze. I bet a shot from a rifle in the middle section has a high probability of death. I've never hot someone or been shot myself, so I can tell you from experience:)

You can click on on screen name to send me a PM, only I can read it (its like an email). I'll help as much as I can, but if you only resource me you are selling yourself short because there are many more knowledgable people on this forum.
 
Would the victim die immediately?

If shot in the abdomen, very likely no. In fact, you would have to have a devastating injury to the aorta to cause "sudden death", which does not happen very often (speaking from personal experience). Even projectile injuries to the aorta can be non-fatal. The injury would need to be to the chest, heart or pulmonary hilum (where the pulmonary arteries lie) or to the head for sudden death to occur. Those people that die on scene from GSW are usually unlucky enough to have a major vascular injury or major organ injury that causes major bleeding (liver or kidneys in the abdomen), and most of those will live for at least a few minutes.

Most gunshot wounds to the abdomen damage only bowel. You actually have to be pretty unlucky to die from an abdominal GSW, though it certainly happens enough.
 
Thankfully, I have no personal experience but I've read that getting shot in the lower abdomen is the (or one of the) most painful spots.

A victim shot there would almost certainly not die instantly but the exact affect is unpredictable. If the spine were severed, obviously any nerve connections below that point would fail.

If I were writing a story which included such an injury, I would search for the affects of grievous injuries to intestines, liver, etc...
 
I would second the 30-06 and maybe throw in the 270 as a very close runner-up in terms of the most popular North American rifle.
 
30-06 is one of the main rounds used. It is most common in Bolt actions but is found in other types of rifles.

Another very popular one is the 30-30. It is more traditional and found in lever actions. It all depends on what you are looking for.
 
Based on my experiences over many decades, there is wide variation in the effects of hunting bullets. You can pretty much have your results however you want, from suddenly-dead to survivability but in a wheelchair. However, given the distance given in the opening post, I'd vote for "ruined". There would be a great amount of rupture of the organs adjacent to the stomach.

FWIW, it would make a difference if the shootee had had a large meal versus an empty stomach. In the latter case, maybe "wheelchair".
 
LJBerg

To Brian Pfleuger and The Rifleer. Thanks a lot. Yes, your information does help. I want to make the murder scene and weapon as real as possible. If I have more questions may I get in touch with either of you?

Oh, I do have a question. After being shot, would the victim die immediately?

Thanks again.
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Have to agree 30.06 as THE typical hunting rifle, with 30.30 being second and .270 or .243 others.

As for the Pathology of gunshots here's an excellent site, that will also link you into others.
http://www.forensicsciencecentral.co.uk/firearms.shtml

Welcome to TFL, you have some of the best people to ask around here.
 
Excellent answers!

I will just add that rifles are several times more powerful than handguns. Rifle bullets are often copper jacketed with an unjacketed 'soft point'. This encourages mushrooming. Handgun bullets use 'hollowpoints' to achieve this.

When cleaning a deer the flesh within the wound is very mushy and has a dark liver red color to it. Most bone that is struck is crushed into bits.

No a gut shot wouldn't likely kill quickly. But it would most likely be a mortal wound.

One more fact. Deer ammo is significantly more leathal than military fmj ammo.
 
Yes to the Remington 700 and .30-06. Second place would be a Winchester 94 and a .30-30.

Either round would make a hole through safety class with some spider webbing and possibly a couple of pieces of glass hanging on by the plastic liner.

If you're looking you would be able to see the muzzle flash. Might be able to here the report, but that depends on circumstances.

Wounds depend on the bullet, its velocity, and the path through the body. Pick the outcome that best fits your story and then use the appropriate combo.

One possibility not mentioned so far is that it's possible that the muzzle blast would ignite clothing at that range. Depending on the clothing it is also possible that there would be powder burns on the body.
 
Type of "common" hunting rifle will most likely vary based on the location within the country.

In my part of the South East it is a lever action 30/30 followed by an SKS followed by a bolt action .30-06.

Somewhere out West it is probably different. Certain places in the country don't even allow rifles for hunting and a slug gun may be more "common".

As for noise. Remember, noise is pressure waves of air. Anything that impedes the travel of air, will greatly reduce noise as it will have to 1st excite the "container" before that energy can be transferred outside. The thicker the walls, the less they will move, the less they move, the less the noise will be transferred outside the "container".

Muzzle flash is dependent on the amount of powder that is still burning as the bullet leaves the barrel and whether the powder has flash retardent in it. So barrel length and ammo type have a large effect. Suffice it to say, muzzle flash would most likely only be visible from your conditions if it were fired in a dark room at night and your protaganist was looking directly at the window in question. It probably wouldn't be taken as a muzzle flash though, especially without a audible report to tie it to.

Safety glass will not stop a bullet.

However, you are a writer, not a scientist. Use poetic license. It makes things more dramatic. Reality is, well, really boring at times.;)

ETA:

One additional piece of advice, go out and try some of the guns that you are going to use for yourself. That way you really know what it is like to shoot them. It will make for a much better story if you can actually describe what firing a gun is like, and know the realistic uses for them. (At least you won't describe it as a bullet flying through the air with the cartridge case still attached or firing 50 rounds without reloading or thumb cocking a non-hammer fired pistol or other equally silly things).:rolleyes:
 
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I must be in good company because I read the question and thought of my 30-06.

However, you are a writer, not a scientist. Use poetic license. It makes things more dramatic. Reality is, well, really boring at times.
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Take Crow Hunter's advice here and let your imagination dictate the wound. then, if you want to get into the why of it, do research into what sort of placement and round (soft point, full metal jacketed...) would cause the effect you imagined. Another nice touch might be papers on the desk being lifted into the air due to muzzle blast, dramatic visual there :)

Also, thank you for doing your research. People like me and probably most of these guys hate glaring inaccuracies when it comes to writing or movies.
 
A Note on Characterization

I don't know anything about the character pulling the trigger, but the type of rifle used can evoke a distinct mental picture for people familiar with firearms. A lever gun, for example, can bring to mind a much different image of the shooter than a bolt action or semi-auto.

Not only can the type of rifle affect the reader's perception of the killer, it can also lead investigators in one direction or the other. A common hunting rifle might lead them to a different suspect than a rifle set up for long distance target shooting, for example. If the rifle was simply a weapon of opportunity, then the impression it gives might be a red herring.

Just a few thoughts that may or may not be helpful.
 
On the other hand, while you should be correct, there is no need to go into a lot of detail. I have read a couple of stories that got good marks on the gunboards and thought they read like Guns & Ammo articles; TOO much detail detracts from plot advancement.
 
Jim Watson said:
On the other hand, while you should be correct, there is no need to go into a lot of detail. I have read a couple of stories that got good marks on the gunboards and thought they read like Guns & Ammo articles; TOO much detail detracts from plot advancement.
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Yep, you only need the details that are going to advance the plot. That detail might be a red herring that leads your protagonist astray, or it might be a detail that leads your protagonist to a successful conclusion, but whatever the detail, it must advance the plot.

Good luck, and good writing.
 
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