indoor frangible .223 -- which cartridges, where to get them?

K

Kaylee

New member
yeah, I know this is a controversial topic...:D And I know many folks will just say "get a shotgun." Thing is.. I suck with a shotgun. Rifles and carbines though, I'm pretty darn comfortable with, and know I can use them well.

SO...

In light of all this "HD carbine and frangible .223" stuff I've been reading about in the archives, I was wondering if anyone had any specific suggestions for cartridges and manufacturers. I was planning to try a drywall test in a few weeks, and was wondering what type of ammo to look for. Also, where to find it??

Most folks I've talked to so far said the options looked pretty limited, unless I wanted to go $1/round or so for Glasers or reload my own varmint rounds... and I don't reload. Bother.

So.. any recommendations for commercial sources of said cartridges, preferably some that I wouldn't be sinking more money into the contents of the magazine than into the rifle itself?

-K
 
IIRC, Hornady makes a 223 TAP (Tactical Application Police) load, Which is (I think) a lightweight lower velocity round, designed to not over penetrate in the short range city senarios that the police often encounter.

Possibly someone else can shed more light on these rounds? I've never seen or used them, just heresay.
 
Ammoman.com has Hornady TAP ammo in several weights. I bought some of the 40g for my Mini-14 but haven't tried it out yet. No doubt other people on this forum are more familiar with its effectiveness for HD.
 
Try visiting Olympic Arms' site, they have a section under "Tech Info" called ".223 penetration tests" which has some articles comparing the use of .223 to handgun & shotgun calibers as well as the tacticul use of .223 rounds for CQB.

What is suggested is that .223 rounds (hollowpoints) might be a better round than some handgun/shotgun rounds in overpenetration. -probably due to their lightness.

You may not need all those expensive rounds after all.

http://www.olyarms.com/usa.html
 
Frang

Kaylee,

The frang training ammo is available from a number of vendors, including Longbow, Delta Engineering, Winchester, and Federal.

The Long bow is not jacketed, and consequently may cause bbl erosion if it disintegrates within the bore. The WW is good stuff, and provides good accuracy out to 100yds, but will of course fragment completely upon striking a hard target.
The Fed appears to be excellent stuff, and tests at Crane back that up.

Those posts listed above are HP and SP offerings but are not the frangibile used for training, and which will completely disintegrate on impact.
These rounds will need a bullet trap to prevent a rapid deterioration of your shoot house.

Please note that these rounds are lethal. They will perforate soft body armor. They are not toys.

I'm not sure why you want this ammo- vendors may restrict sales to mil/ LE.
 
Though not "frangible", Hornady TAP are better than FMJ in that regard. I have chrono'd the 60gr's from my 20" M96 at an average of 2986fps for 4 shots, std dev 19.5

In comparison:

Hornady "TAP" 60gr: 3005, 2988, 2966 av 2986, sigma 19.5
IMI M855 62gr: 3074, 3067, 3078 av 3073, s 5.56
Black Hillls 52gr HP match: 3296, 3278, 3295 av 3290 s 10
South African M193: 3268, 3240 av 3254 s 19.8

Accuracy best to worst was TAP, BH Match, SA M193. I didn't bench the IMI.

-z
 
Thanks guys!

This is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Any word on the V-Max varmint loads? I'd had 'em recommended, but didn't hear details. Do they function more or less as the TAP, or no?

Good to hear the SP/HP are also better about penetration than handgun loads.. I think I'll likely still go with the frangible stuff for the extra margin of safety.

Pat -- thanks for the warnings about barrel erosion.. is there a certain FPS or powder charge that tends to lead to that I need to know about?

Please note that these rounds are lethal. They will perforate soft body armor. They are not toys.
Click to expand...

Thanks Pat.. that is indeed the general idea.

As to why I'm looking for it -- 'cause I've already met a couple prime examples of Homo Predatorius, and in the extremely unlikely event others of that species happen to wander into my bedroom one night, I'd like an appropriate greeting that won't end up landing in my next door neighbor's kiddy crib. And like I said, I suck with a shotgun.

Thanks again all!

-K
 
Frang

Kaylee,

In that case avoid the frangibile ammunition and go with a SP/HP round.
Most 5.56x45mm 55 gr or heavier SP/HP will do exactly what you want to do.
The 75 grHornady TAP (which is basically similar to the VMax) is optimum according Dr. Gary K. Roberts who is a ballistic SME and not in the voodoo club.
The Mil and many cop teams have dumped the sub caliber weapons for the 5.56x45mm guns.

Training ammunition is sufficient for training- anti personnel ammo should be used for that purpose.

Good luck!
 
How about those Winchester 45gr JHP ammo I see at Walmart?

I would think that such light weight ammo would have pretty good speed and JHP design should minimize penetration. I fired about 100 rounds of that stuff and they were reliable in my 2 ARs and would group around 2" at 100 yards from my rifles. At $11 for box of 40 rounds, cheap too.
 
How about those Winchester 45gr JHP ammo I see at Walmart?

I would think that such light weight ammo would have pretty good speed and JHP design should minimize penetration. I fired about 100 rounds of that stuff and they were reliable in my 2 ARs and would group around 2" at 100 yards from my rifles. At $11 for box of 40 rounds, cheap too.
 
5.56x45mm

Taco,

Bullet weight under 55 grs for this round generally means poor performance.

Price should not be a deciding factor in choosing ammunition that you may need to save your life, but of course it enters into it. An agency or depatment that orders several hundred thousand rds a quarter will need to factor price in.

Base your decisions on ammo selection on performance, and base those reports on tests that can accurately measure performance.
Again- seek out the papers done by Dr. Roberts and Dr. Fackler, and not subjective trash based on voodoo.
 
I think those V-Max varmit loads are 40gr. with a hollow "crumpled" tip, designed to open on impact, they will not make very good home-defense rounds because they have no penetration. If a BG is wearing denim, leather, muscled, fat, etc. you will probably be taking chunks out of him rather than penetrating into vitals. -I know that if someone did that to me, it'd only make me angrier.

-Go for a little better penetration.
 
Makes sense.. thanks all for the wonderful advice!

I'll be picking up my Mini next week sometime, so I figure I'll try a box of the Vmax, a box of SP or HP, and if I can get a hold if it, a box of TAP with a drywall backstop. I'll let y'all know how it comes out..

does sound like the SP is the way to go though.. can I presume .223 doesn't have the same problem of HP filling up by "cookie cuttering" that some pistol rounds apparently do?

Thanks again!

-K
 
I've been told more than once that the TAP and Vmax ammo are the same thing. The Vmax is cheaper as it is marketed to varmant hunters while the TAP is more expensive as it is marketed to the self- defense/LEO crowd.
 
Standard 55 gr. HP should work well

I have read several comments from the "experts" (John Farnam and Clint Smith are two) that the HP .223 makes an excellent house gun as penetration is actually less of a problem with this round than most handgun and shotgun loads.

My experience tells me that the hunting loads from the various makers do not over penetrate badly but the target hollowpoints don't open up and do in fact have a lot of penetration. I've never seen one of these hunting rounds fully penetrate a whitetail deer and only seldom give an exit wound on a coyote.

The frangible bullets are too damned expensive anyway. IMHO.
jack
 
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