Increasing 45 ACP Yield

D

DesertRatR

New member
I am trying to improve my 45 ACP yield. I load on an RCBS Pro 2000 with RCBS with carbide dies (last die is seater/crimper). I am loading 230 gr LRN moly coated bullets with Starline brass and 5.5 gr Unique. The photo shows one of my inert set up rounds, with the shoulder above the case mouth. The shoulder is about 0.050” high. I have been getting about 90% yield, by that I mean 90% or so of what comes out of the press drops nicely into my case gage. A couple per cent won’t go into the gage all the way, protruding anywhere from 1/4” or more out of the gage, so I download them and reload. The rest will go into the gage, but protrude above the gage a few mils. When I look at those under magnification I can see the shoulder on the bullet is a bit mangled, and that keeps the round from properly head spacing. Using a pick and brush I can clean up the lead and smooth it out so that the round then head spaces properly. Those rounds all feed and shoot properly after cleanup, but it is an extra step that is a bit time consuming.

I am attributing the yield problem to the bullet not being quite vertical going into the die, and the die not straightening it out. That is only a guess, though. Is there a better die that would straighten the bullet if it is a bit cock-eyed? BTW, my bell allows about 1/8” or so of the bullet into the case mouth.

The other option I can think of is to seat the bullet 0.050” deeper, and move the shoulder just to the case mouth. I use the Speer loading manual. Their data for 230 gr LRN is for 1.270” OAL. I am at 1.265”, 0.4% reduced volume. I’ve loaded anywhere from 0.3% low to 1.5% low and all chronograph (I usually chronograph 60 at a time) at 808 ft/s with SD of 18 ft/s. Speer’s max load velocity is 849 ft/s. Seating the bullet 0.050” deeper is 4.5% volume reduction. I think I can reduce the load and sneak up on a safe load. What is the risk in loading shorter and sneaking up on load?

I forgot to roll the bad rounds to check for wobble. But I just rolled my 6 inert set up rounds and none wobble.

If my idea of the bullet being cock-eyed doesn’t make sense, any suggestions to improve yield with out clean up work?
 

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Flare the case more to prevent the lead shaving and try seating at 1.25. Back down to 5.4 grains if it makes you feel better. 1.275 is max OAL, but most bullets can't be seated out that far.
 
I had 2/50 fail with the same bullet from SNS, I determined that it was seated about / to long. The lead "lip" was the problem, my guess is that the coating added just a tad, needed a tad deeper. I do not care for that bullet design, I went to groove-less plated/coated and have never had a problem since.

I don't know if the .45 was ever designed for a lead bullet? but I find them finicky in my colt. The Sig less so. YMMV

and +1 a little more bell.
 
It sounds to me that the crimp is not being coordinated with the bullet seating, meaning that the bullet is still in the process of being seated while the crimp is being applied, thereby causing some bullet shearing. Try this to see if that might be the case. Create a dummy round and start by sizing and flaring a case in the usual manner. Then back off the seater/crimp die so that no crimp is initially applied. Then screw the seating stem down and seat a bullet to the proper depth.

Now back off the seating stem and screw the die body down to obtain the proper crimp. Finally now screw the seating stem back down to contact the bullet and seating and crimping should now be coordinated to eliminate bullet shearing. It seems that your initial flaring is sufficient. The crimp should be a taper crimp of course.

Are you using moly coated bullets from Bear Creek? I've used them extensively for rifle loads but never for handguns. With .45-70s I have a similar situation where it is extremely difficult to prevent just a very minor amount of bullet shearing that I remove with a sharp pointed tool.
 
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Your "yield" may be different if you check the rounds with your pistol's barrel. Take the barrel out if the gun first of course. That's the real gauge.

-TL
 
A couple of things to check:

One is that a tilted round almost always bulges the case over the bullet base on one side, but the bulge nearly disappears on the other. Straight rounds have a close to even bulge all around. It's not perfectly even because brass thickness isn't perfectly even, but it comes close.

Another is that .45 Auto brass tends to shorten a little rather than grow with each load cycle, so if you have enough reloads through it, you have to adjust your flare to make up for the loss of length. I always lost about half a thousandth per load cycle with 200 grain LSWC target loads of about 4 grains of Bullseye.

A remedy for the above is to go to a flaring die with the Lyman M type profile if you don't have that now. If you set a bullet into it, it tends to stay straight all the way in.

Case%20Flare%20Style%20showing%20tilt_zpspxacapfz.gif
 
Take the barrel out of you 45

Test the ones that are 1/4 inch too high.

It is likely as I found, 90% of my 9mm failed the gauges, but worked fine in the barrel.

I found the point that was both too high in the gauge and would not work in the barrel.

That was about 1/10 of 1%

The gauges are set to SAMMI exact specs (my opinion) barrel chambers are out at the max to allow a gun to function as reliably as possible.
 
That's a very good suggestion if you are only running the ammo in one gun. If you are trying to use it in multiple platforms, then the gauge becomes good insurance, as it should cover them all. However, you also described shaved lead rings you had to clean up. I've had those to cause fouling problems in the distant past, so it's still best to adjust your loading gear until you fix that issue.
 
Flare a little more, and seat a little deeper. Your problem is a matter of "timing" (die adjustment).

The case is being fully "straightened", and taper crimped, just before the bullet is fully seated, and that is shaving that small bit of lead/coating.

Lead bullets with a shoulder like the ones you have need to have the shoulder flush, or just barely below the case mouth.

Seating and crimping in one step is fairly easy with a roll crimp, but can be a tricksy adjustment using a taper crimp. It can be done, but many find it simpler to taper crimp as a separate step, with a separate die.

The .45acp is a low pressure round, and as such, is much more tolerant of seating the bullet a little deeper than the 9mm or that grenade in waiting, the .40S&W. A small change in seating depth does not normally result in horrendous pressure spikes like some other rounds. (not saying the pressure doesn't go up, some, saying it normally doesn't matter, and both the pistol and you will probably not notice it.)

Speer’s max load velocity is 849 ft/s. Seating the bullet 0.050” deeper is 4.5% volume reduction. I think I can reduce the load and sneak up on a safe load. What is the risk in loading shorter and sneaking up on load?
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Sure, you can do that. Won't hurt anything. I don't think you need to, but I'm a seat of the pants reloader. :rolleyes:

I've been loading every 230gr slug with 6.5gr Unique since the mid 70s with no issues ever. It's the Lyman "factory duplication load" and works just fine in my various 1911A1s, Sigs, Tommygun, and Ruger SA revolvers. Too hot for my converted Webley, though. That one requires Webley level loads, put up in ACP brass.

When loading for the .45ACP, I have found only two COALs that are critical. Too LONG to feed from the magazine, and too SHORT to feed from the magazine. Normally if you don't go longer than the SAAMI spec, they feed ok. Slightly shorter (and if you check factory rounds, they ALL are) usually works even better. Don't know how you would get too short to feed, but it is probably possible in some guns.
 
All the old time bull's eye shooters would set the shoulder about 0.020" forward of the case mouth with the idea of getting it to just start into the groove diameter of the bore, for better alignment. The thickness of a thumbnail was the common measure. However, that only is sure to work if you can verify that your cases headspace on the chamber correctly. Many chambers are so loose that the case rim headspaces on the extractor hook before the case mouth gets to the end of the chamber. The fact .45 Auto cases gradually shorten with each reloading cycle also means a lot of brass that doesn't do this now, will eventually if you get enough loads through it. I had some cases I once tracked through 50 reloadings with about 4 grains of Bullseye behind 185 and 200 grain LSWC's, and they were all 0.025" shorter by the end of the exercise.

That's the main reason I eventually went to headspacing by bullet contact with the throat with this cartridge. Many of my bullets wound up sticking out pretty far. Some longer shapes would not fit the magazines this way and had to be rejected. But where it works it cut my lead bullet group sizes by about 40% and almost all leading of the bore ceased. Apparently a lot of inaccuracy and leading are caused by the bullets going into the throat slightly crooked and shaving or swaging the leas with the corner at the end of the chamber. It does require using the barrel as the gauge and tweaking seating depth for the particular barrel and bullet, as you are looking for the back face of the case to be flush with the back end of the dropped-in round (see third from left, below).

45SeatingPossibilities_zpsea6ec64c.gif
 
That's a very good suggestion if you are only running the ammo in one gun. If you are trying to use it in multiple platforms, then the gauge becomes good insurance, as it should cover them all. However, you also described shaved lead rings you had to clean up. I've had those to cause fouling problems in the distant past, so it's still best to adjust your loading gear until you fix that issue.
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Thank you for catching that and pointing it out, Beyond valid.

Only good for one gun.
 
Good for minimum 1 gun, but could be more than one.

I never use gauge, as meeting saami specs is not my priority. If I have more than one gun of the same caliber, I handload for each one of them. Sometimes one handload is good enough for the other.

-TL
 
Never needed or wanted a gage.
The solution to chambering problems is to determine the cause:
Take the barrel out of the gun. Drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth a few times.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) Scratches in the ink on bullet--COL is too long
2) Scratches in the ink on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) Scratches in the ink just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) Scratches in the ink on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
5) Scratches in the ink on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.
 
Seat and crimp in separate steps. I use the Lee FCD with good results. Redding's profile crimp die is also very good if the resizing feature freaks you out about the FCD (or just knock out the sizing collar, although the FCD's sizing feature will up your yield.) The Lyman M die is the real deal. I use it for every handgun cartridge I load. You can also have RCBS make a custom seating stem for your bullets for a very reasonable cost. It helps seat them straight, especially if you are using the Lyman die too. If you really want to seat them straight every time get a Redding competition seating die. I get by without it in 45 Auto but use it in 45 Colt and 357 Magnum. It drops bullets in perfectly.
 
If you are seating and crimping at the same time I'm surprised you don't have more rejects. You may also need to increase the case flare. My 2 cents.
 
Seating and crimping with the same die can be done if the two steps are properly coordinated by the die adjustment as indicated in post #4. The bullet must be seated before the crimp is applied, otherwise bullet shearing will occur.
 
Thinking back on all the revolver rounds I've reloaded, they were mostly done with just one die for both seating and crimping, using bullets of many designs.
Get the adjustments correct and it works fine.
Requiring one less step, too.
Always appreciated, especially with a single stage press.
 
Bullets for revolvers usually have a crimp groove
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Incorrect. I am using and shooting 160 grain 38 sp bullets, no crimp groove and 45 acp 200, 230 grain bullets, no crimp groove, and yes both out of revolvers
 
"Usually" is correct. Just because you are using slick sided bullets doesn't mean they are standard for the job. I have some of those grooveless .38 bullets and they do ok with a light taper crimp. But that is for the maker's convenience, not yours. I want a crimp groove for Magnums.
 
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