In The Gravest Extreme. Just finished reading it

Status
Not open for further replies.

TheNocturnus

New member
So after hearing about this book and how great it is, I bought it off of ebay and it arrived today. I read the entire book in about an hour and it was ok I guess. Being written in 1980 it was very dated and some of it was obsolete.

The basic knowledge remains the same i.e. gun safety, when to use lethal force etc... I guess I was expecting more information. I guess some other CCW holders just don't see this as common sense stuff.

All in all a good read but there has to be a more current book out there discussing CCW. Anyone know of one?
 
Last edited:
Nobody?

okayguy.jpg


Okay...
 
First, you posted your question about 6.5 hours ago. One can't always expect an immediate response. Some patience would be in order.

Second, exactly what are you looking for? In The Gravest Extreme was, and remains, an excellent overview of legal and ethical issues related to the use of force in self defense. And as such, the scope of the book is a little narrow. There are a great many books on self defense, both from the legal perspective and the practical perspective.

Some additional resources are:

  • Ayoob, Massad, The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry, Gun Digest Books, 2008

  • Ayoob, Massad, Combat Shooting with Massad Ayoob, Gun Digest Books, 2011

  • Ayoob, Massad, The Truth About Self Protection, Police Bookshelf, 2004

  • Jackson, Kathy and Walters, Mark, Lessons from Armed America, White Feather Press, 2009

  • Korwin, Alan, After You Shoot, Bloomfield Press, 2011
And there are no doubt many more of interest to be found by browsing Amazon.

Here's another useful resource on the use of force. And there are some excellent articles available in the on-line Journal published by the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network.
 
Thanks for the info. I will look into them. I was kind of expecting a flood of people seeing as this book is talked about by nearly everyone on this forum. I rode the hype train and was kind of disappointed I guess.
 
Nocturnus31 said:
...I rode the hype train and was kind of disappointed I guess....
Then I'd be curious what you expected/were looking for.

When I first read In the Gravest Extreme, I had already retired after practicing law for over 30 years, I had some pretty good training (including a couple of classes at Gunsite), I had been an NRA certified instructor for some years, and I was pretty well read in both practical pistol craft and use of force law. And I still found a great deal of useful and new information in the book.
 
Then I'd be curious what you expected/were looking for.

When I first read In the Gravest Extreme, I had already retired after practicing law for over 30 years, I had some pretty good training (including a couple of classes at Gunsite), I had been an NRA certified instructor for some years, and I was pretty well read in both practical pistol craft and use of force law. And I still found a great deal of useful and new information in the book.

I was expecting more coverage of what to do during a gun fight (other than the obvious shoot the BG and survive), more de-escalating tactics, just more in depth discussion of what to expect from a sudden dump of adrenalin in a combat situation.

Ayoob mentions 3 personal encounters where he draws but does not shoot in the book. He discussed nothing in regards to the physiological effect it had on his body.

I was also expecting a longer read than 1 hour...
 
So you set yourself up with unrealistic expectations, then you were disappointed, although the book is 30 years old and overviews were readily available?

When you ordered the book, I'd even bet the website listed the number of pages in the book, so its length (or shortness) should not have been a surprise, either.

What exactly is your point?
 
Nocturnus31:
Mr. Ayoob is a member of some of these forums so you may wish to contact him. He also teaches classes with his new company the Mas Ayoob Group (MAG). He is a retired Police Captain and knows a good deal of the subject. I first found out about him from reading an article he wrote in a police magazine in the 1980's. It was about the Basic Officer Survival School (BOSS) at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) in Glynco GA. It was a great article. In 1995 I was able to attend FLETC and that course had been incorporated into the basic police school. Mr. Ayoob is very good. The information he gives is usually right on. He tries to stay as up to date as possible. There is so much info out there that no one man can teach it all but he does try to give the meat of the subject without any fancy deserts. He also has several videos out that are helpful. You could do worse for an instructor but in my opinion there are few equal to him and even fewer better than him.
 
I read all of Ayoobs books and the two good ones are In the Gravest Extreme, and Gunproof your Children. The others are pretty ho hum.
 
I met him in the '80s and he was a pioneer in the growing defensive shooting world. Those pioneers gave use vital information , filling a huge gap ,in an ever growing need for defending ourselves .If you want to learn you can start there and progress to the more recent books. Even better get a serious course from one of the better instructors. You will join the ranks of use who were surprised at the great amount we didn't know.
 
I was expecting more coverage of what to do during a gun fight (other than the obvious shoot the BG and survive), more de-escalating tactics, just more in depth discussion of what to expect from a sudden dump of adrenalin in a combat situation.

This is the stuff that there is no cookbook for. There is just informed opinion (and un-informed, unfortunately) and the examples of others gained by their experience. And your experience if you are unfortunate enough to have it.
 
I have read it a few times and while it is dated, the basic still apply. My brain is not functioning, but there are quite a few newer and more applicable read to today's litiginous society as it pertains to firearms.
 
Part of your disappointment in the book may be because it is a collection of magazine articles, rather than a single writing divided into chapters.
 
So you set yourself up with unrealistic expectations, then you were disappointed, although the book is 30 years old and overviews were readily available?

When you ordered the book, I'd even bet the website listed the number of pages in the book, so its length (or shortness) should not have been a surprise, either.

What exactly is your point?


Sorry guys, I get the feeling like I just insulted the bible and Jesus himself by not giving this book the highest praises. This book just seemed like a compilation of common sense.

I am not law enforcement and only got into guns about a year ago but everything I read in this book I already knew. I'm glad that others got helpful information from his book.

For me though I got an interesting read but nothing new to me. And no, the Ebay listing did not mention the length of the book. And my expectations were derived from all of the high praises this book has been given to me by members on this forum.

My point is, I guess, is that CCW is not that complicated. Learn the laws of where you live, follow them to the letter and hope you never have to use your weapon for anything other than shooting paper and wearing out it's holster.
 
Nocturnus31 said:
...I get the feeling like I just insulted the bible...
What you're really seeing is that a lot of people don't agree with your opinion and are puzzled about how you came up with your opinion.

Nocturnus31 said:
...I am not law enforcement and only got into guns about a year ago but everything I read in this book I already knew....
On the other hand, the folks who are disagreeing with you here are, mostly, a good deal older than you, have had a good deal more experience with guns (and probably with other things as well) than you and some I know have had some fairly extensive training. Maybe you're missing something.

Nocturnus31 said:
...My point is, I guess, is that CCW is not that complicated....
And when I see someone make a statement like that, I pretty much figure that he hasn't had much training and really has no idea what he doesn't know.
 
Fiddletown, I am a very intelligent person and have a great deal of knowledge into how the world works and how people interact with one another. I have dealt with some of the worst people and some of the best. I have had my life threatened on a few occasions which is why I carry now.

I don't want to argue semantics with you or anyone else on this forum. I have just simply read this book, the holy grail of CCW books as I was told, and was not very impressed.

I have no doubts that Mr. Ayoob is a very educated and experienced man that has a lot to teach to others. I myself have been is some very hairy situations and thought maybe I could learn a thing or two by reading this book, I was wrong. I will continue my search for knowledge as I have done my entire life.

Please close this thread as I am tired of being talked down to by a moderator that, in my opinion, is speaking rather obtusely about a person in which he has never met or ever will.
 
Possibly I can offer something, as one who's been through a week-long course with Mas many years ago, one who has met him, one who emails back & forth, and one who has both the Gravest Extreme & his latest book, Combat Shooting. And, I was even in one of his training videos. :)

I agree that the first is a bit dated. We got that one for my wife five or six years ago, and we both noticed it. I offered to update it for Mas, but he kindly turned me down. :)
Still, as mentioned, some good info in it.

The new one has good material in it, too. Some of that was repetitive FOR ME, because I have a hell of a lot more time & experience in concealed carry & related gunnery aspects than you do.
For somebody in your position, I think you could get something useful out of it. I did. There's usually at least SOMETHING I can take away from such a book, unless the basics are so outdated it's not worth buying or finishing. In Combat Shooting, there's quite a bit.

But & however, if you're looking for a How-To Manual for getting through a gunfight, I doubt you'll find one.
If you already know it all anyway, I'd suggest you not bother trying to learn any more.

And, if you're still looking for discussion of the physiological effects of pointing a gun at somebody, maybe I can help there, too.

It is not fun. It is not cool. It is not something you really want to do (for most "normal" people) unless you have to.
The effects depend on the situation, the perception, the experience level, and the person.

If you've had a relatively slow buildup, you may have time for fear to gradually bring your heart & respiration rates up, and it can affect your stomach.
If it jumps out at you suddenly, you probably won't have time to feel the fear (and I have no embarassment in saying there were times when fear was present, you just get on with what needs to be done in spite of it). You may not experience any physical reaction till it's all over.

You may or may not experience the tunnel vision and tache psyche that Mas has written about numerous times.
If the situation involves a rapidly escalating threat that you perceive is placing your life in imminent danger, your breathing may skyrocket along with your heart rate. You may experience muscle tremors immediately, or they may present once the threat has been resolved as part of the after-effects of an adrenaline dump and a realization of how close you actually came to harm or death.

You may or may not have time to consciously register thoughts such as "He has a knife", "If he does this, I'll do that", or "Can I really shoot him?"
If time slows down, you may experience several thoughts running through your mind, including "Why is this happening so slowly?"

The physiological effects will most likely, but not most certainly, be less if you've done this several times. And, that still depends on the nature of the incident.

I am neither bragging nor exaggerating when I say in the 19 years I was with my last department I pointed my duty handgun at someone multiple times, everything from a gal who pulled a knife when we were attempting to take her into custody to a guy with a machete who was trying to get me to help him out with his suicide-by-cop plan, numerous felony traffic stops, house clearances, warrants, and various felony arrests.

My "first" was many years ago when I stopped on the way home from work on sight of a guy standing over a downed gal with a knife in his hand in the middle of the road late at night. I got out, he advanced on me, and he backed off when he saw my .357 pointed at his chest.
I didn't take time to notice my physiological reactions till after three city PD cars arrived & took over. My attention was on getting the guy away from the gal & keeping him from getting too close to me with that knife.

I have personally experienced the reactions mentioned above, to some degree, on several, and none whatever on others.

Does any of that help you? :)
Denis
 
I thought it was pretty good thirty years ago. Back then there was nothing else. It was also written with the assumption that the reader knows little if anything about the subject. So a lot of it is basics.

Funny it took me about a hour or so to read it. And I'm still reading it thirty years later. There is a copy on my desk this morning. I buy copies and give them to friends.

Good book.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top