In combat: Silenced, semi-auto, bolt action? Fix/Variable zoom?

S

Silent Shadow

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Silencers decrease the performance of any rifle right?

Semi-autos are not as reliable and precise as bolt action?

Variable zoom scopes are less realiable, but more handy?


What combination wouldyou chose?

From the little I know about rifles, I would go for bolt action, unsilenced, and variable zoom

your thoughts?

Silent Shadow
 
Well, I've been messing with all manner of guns for a long, long time. I like the idea of selective fire, although I think the option of either 3-shot burst OR full-auto is a Good Thing.

A silencer is a problem degrading a rifle's perfomance less than of its own degradation of the wipes and such. In a combat situation with much firing, the silencer wouldn't be very silent for very long...

Running and falling and rolling around in mud or snow and all that sort of thing makes the idea of a scope on a basic combat arm to be a less than Ideal Deal.

I'm talking line combat, not sniping, obviously. (Well, I hope it's obvious.)

:), Art
 
For real (outdoor) combat an M14 is hard to beat. Your question is too vague for a good answer. How about a location, time of year, etc. Newer silencers accually don't degrade much of anything. The OPSINC was developed for military use and will never wear out. It is constructed entirely of stainless steel and will drain clear of water in less than 6 seconds after bringing it up from being submerged. It is currently being tested for use on the .408 CheyTac Windrunner.
 
Battle type combat is noisey enough to make a silencer rather moot. Just another thing to carry and have fail. Optics generaly in a similar catagory. Special occaisions could warrent use of specialized optics and/or silencer. But that would be a miniscule useage situation.

Semiautos and select fires are plenty reliable and precise enough for most battle situations. Never had the pleasure of using a burst fire weapon but select fire is nice. Single shots for tack drivin and on full auto doin double taps for ambush modulation. Triple taps seem to generate a miss on the third round if focusin on a single target. A very few are very good at holding a full auto on target but most do better with semi auto or pairs. Takes fire discipline to use any weapon effectively.

Sam
 
"What combination wouldyou chose? "

.300 Whisper top half on a bushmaster semi or full auto lower.

Very quiet,very accurate up to 300 yards. Very reliable. Any good quality suppressor will do. The Whisper has a valve that can make it shoot singleshots without cycling the action, thus cutting out action noise, or it can be used in semi or auto mode.
Generally the bullet hitting the target is louder than the shot.

You are aware that a "silenced" bullet MUST be subsonic right?
The decrease in performance comes from reduced velocity,usually about 1150 FPS or so. Thus , you loose kinetic energy quite rapidly. The .300 Whisper can be shot with 220 grain spitzer bullets to make up for this decrease, and the 220 grainers have the best ballistic coefficient of all .30 calibers. Even so, at 200 yards youll have better than 10 inches of drop if you are sighted in at 100.
 
"Silencers" per se, don't degrade anything accuracy-wise. Match accuracy can be had w/their use. Trade-off is that the bullet needs to be launched at <1050fps (sub-sonic), or so. Affects trajectory just because of the slower launch speed. Within "reasonable" range, & knowledge of trajectory, depending on bullet/caliber, one could put it "right there" to 200, or so, yards. .300 Whisper (& variants) comes to mind.

The "silenced degradation" comes into play in that the bullet won't have the normal/standard super-sonic velocity. Only real handicap, if any, is that of the bullet's trajectory - not on-target performance.

Semis can be just as reliable as any bolt but do have a bit of noise asociated with their cycling. Bolts can be worked manually - slower & as to not cause any noise or notice. I wouldn't choose a semi merely based on noise of the action - depending on circumstance.

I've used vaiable power scopes for close to 40 years & have yet to have any problem. Use the lowest magnification for the quick 'n close-in field of view - further out, you're likely to have the time to dial it up for the longer shots, if need be.

"Problem" in your "what if" scenario is that "combat" is fairly ambiguous - too many forms & the "what are you attempting to accomplish?" questions.

Single "sentries" & it really doesn't matter. Take 'em out quietly & there's nobody around to notice = who cares if your action cycles "noisely." Multiples & with the "guy next to you" falling over dead will probably cause some bit of concern ;) no matter what your rifle's action type, but then, a semi would allow you to engage the others a bit more quickly - again, it depends.

If I'd have my druthers, for a silent "single sentry shooter," I'd use any single-shot/bolt-gun, variable-power (1.5-10X scoped) .300 Whisper-class cartridge. Probably a short-barreled, 1.5-10X scoped, bolt - for a one-on-one type scenario. For multiple sentries, it would be nice to have a partner, or two ..... & do the "on 3" count.

'Course, "scaring the barracks out to action" is a "bad thing."

& every bit of that goes out the window as soon as the SHTF if discovered.
 
Narrowing it down.

Ok, I see that combat could have a billion different situations in which you would want different weapons for different cases.

What I inteded in this thread was "the weapon used strictly by a military sniper on his own behind enemy lines as most often occurs"

The objective of the sniper is to be able to effectively do his or her job. What's the job of a sniper? To take out specific targets/people that cannot be taken out by other means or would be too costly to do so.

So what does the sniper have to have?

a) Stealth
b) Ability to kill/destroy his inteded target
c) self-sustainability

So to be self-sustainable, it means that you cannot carry 5 scopes, 2000 cartriges, 2 backup rifles, an extra machine gun and so on so forth. So it means that the sniper has limited gear that has to be effective, efficient, resistant and DURABLE.

To be stealty, it mostly means not being heard and/or seen. The not being seen is crucial. The not being heard is not as important if you are a 1000 yards away and can easily escape.

Ability to kill/destroy, self explanatory.


So again, I would prefer being far far away from the target rather than have a silencer and be 200 yards from it.

I would rather have a bolt action because from the little I know they are more precise at long ranges such as 1000 yards.

I would rather have a variable zoom so that I can actually see what the heck I'm shooting at the other end of the world if it's far, and make use of my rifle when things get close range...

Silent Shadow
 
Since you have better defined the terms under which you would engage (sniping distance): a bolt action with a variable-power scope would be the best choice.
 
Silencers DO Affect Accuracy

One thing to keep in mind is that a silencer - if only by virtue of hanging off the end of the barrel - WILL affect the accuracy of a precision rifle.

If your rifle is preset to a specific cold shot zero, adding a suppressor will affect the dynamics of the bullet flight enough to make a change in POI, quite possibly a significant enough shift to miss the target.

If you plan on using a suppressor in sniper/counter-sniper mode - where a couple of inches makes a difference over the range you'll be shooting at - you want to practice and zero your rifle to the suppressor you plan to use. Use that same suppressor for that particular rifle - it's construction and design make it unique and a different can could create a different result in POI.

The thing that makes sniping an effective art is consistency, knowing what to expect, especially on that crucial cold first shot. An untested suppressor could seriously screw the pooch for you there.
 
just because a silencer changes the POI does NOT

mean that the gun's performance is degraded, it just means that you have to zero with the can mounted. Changing ammo types or slug wts ALSO requires rezeroing, would you say that switching from AP to sp's (to take a deer) "degrades" performance? or vice versa, for knocking holes in gas pipelines, water towers, propane tanks, etc? Silncers do NOT have to use subsonic ammo. The "crack" of a supersonic slug is not very useful for determining the location of the man using same. MCmillan offers a silenced 308 which groups 3" at 600 yds, so accuracy is NOT an issue, if the "can" is properly made and mounted. Once everyone ELSE is firing, screaming, etc, it doesnt MATTER if your silencer becomes somewhat less quiet. The lack of flash of a silenced pc is pretty helpful at night, ya know! A silencer can PREVENT your shot from scaring off game, or "calling in" even MORE enemies. The sonic "crack" is inaudible at 1/4 mile, unless the slug is coming pretty much AT you, in open country, and about half that far in wooded hills. MOST "high value" sniper targets STAY in urban areas, so you have to have both a CONCEALABLE rifle, and an auto, which will let you take SEVERAL shots at a man moving between buildings and vehicles, hit a bodyguard or 2 FIRST, or handle "problems" that beset you before or after "the touch" that you came for. Dont DREAM about not having such problems, because that is VERY dangerous-unrealistic. Military snipers RARELY work alone. They need someone to "spot" and to perform security functions while the sniper focuses on his objective. without a safe base to run to, evac choppers, napalm strikes to call upon, etc, you do NOT want to risk having ONLY a bolt action, especially not one that's not takedown concealable, nor silent.
 
A silencer is a problem degrading a rifle's perfomance less than of its own degradation of the wipes and such. In a combat situation with much firing, the silencer wouldn't be very silent for very long...
Click to expand...

I thought wipes were old technology, and no one makes them anymore. I know most of the newer suppressors I see for sale are wipeless and don't wear out (unless you dump several hundred rounds full auto through it as fast as you can)


As far as bullet flight noise, I found this graph:

bulnoise.GIF
 
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