Improvement in accuracy with Redding dies?

turtlehead

New member
Using a 550B and Dillon dies in .223 for a bolt action and a few ARs. Am swaging, uniforming pockets, full length sizing, trimming with a Giraud Tri-Way trimmer.

Not happy with the accuracy I'm getting. It's no better than factory ammo using Hornady bulk bullets and CFE223. Not as good as commercial Fiocchi VMax when I use those same bullets and CFE223.

I did buy a lb each of Benchmark and Varget and will try those soon.

Any ideas of what to look at or try before getting new dies? I'm using a Hornady seating die with micrometer. Thought that might help but it hasn't seemed to.
 
my unferstanding is cfe usually works well in 223. havent used it myself but others on forum have with very good results. ive used three powders in my 223 blc2 h and imr 4895. my best results so far came after increasing my oal.
 
to try and answer your question better yes. it has to do pressure in chamber velocity and getting bullet to exit barrel at a time when barrel vibration wave is at or near chamber end allowing for bullet exit being at a stable point for repatability. and experimentation with charge wieght will get the most accurate combination.
 
I assume you are using hornady 2267 for a bullet? I'd try a different bullet. That's a decent bullet but there are much better
 
I'm using the 55 grain Hornady fmjbt and also the spire point.

I bought the 50 grain VMax because my Tikka T3 shoots 3/8" groups at 100 yds with the commercial Fiocchi VMax. My loads are slightly over 1 moa.

I do have some MatchKings and GameKings to try. Just haven't gotten that far yet. Was hoping to nail down the others first.
 
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May be the bullets and your barrel. Whats the twist on the barrel? I reload for several .223 Wylde barrels with Hornady, Sierra or Nosler 65, 68, 69 and 77 gr HPBT bullets with 24.5 grs of CFE, LC brass and the accuracy is around .5 MOA. Your barrel may group better with the heavy bullets. None of my barrels will group with the lighter weight bullets. About 1 MOA is what I get with those lighter weight bullets. Whether CFE or Varget, both work well in my ARs with the heavy bullets. I don't use the Dillon crimp. I use a light crimp via a Lee Factory Crimp Die.
 
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The AR barrels are 1:7 and 1:8 so I am using light bullets. The T3 is 1:10.

These were just supposed to be my plinking bullets. I'll up the bullet weights. My MatchKings are 69 so will try those.
 
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Turtlehead said:
The AR barrels are 1:7 and 1:8 so I am using light bullets.

That's backwards. Faster twist is for longer bullets. The 7" is specifically to stabilize M856 Tracer bullets, which are both long and light (the worst combination and hardest to stabilize). So you are spinning your light short bullets a lot faster than you need to. That increases errors caused by any mass offset in the bore.

To overcome that, you need to load straight cartridges. A bullet that is tilting in the chamber can keep up to a couple tenths of a degree or so of that tilt by deforming slightly on the way into rifling in the bore. This is enough to open groups up an inch or so with proper twist, and more in inverse proportion to the pitch of still faster rifling.

Tilting bullets have two causes: Case necks pulled off-axis by the expander in the sizing die during sizing, and seating that isn't straight.

I'm going to guess that your sizing die uses a conventional expander. These can be very hard on case necks by pulling them off-axis (see this video). (That collet die in the video is for neck-sizing-only, so I'm not recommending it for your AR. It's just to show the principle. I use one in combination with a Redding body die to size the lower portion of the case when I want super-precision ammo, but that's a bit awkward to do on the Dillon.)

On the Dillon press it would be easier if you got a sizing die that uses different bushings and picked an insert that makes the ID of your case necks right without needing to expand them, so you can remove the expander and leave it off. This can mean changing the bushing for some brands of brass or when necks get work-hardened. Redding has bushings in 0.001" increments where other makes are in steps of 0.002", IIRC, but you may find the right one that way anyway.

For seating, the Redding Competition Seating Die is impossible to beat, IME. It has been tried against numerous other seating dies and produced smaller groups on targets, including as compared to other match seating dies. For a progressive press, it's a good choice.

I never crimp my rounds. You should experiment in your gun and see what gets best results.

Seat your primers hard. You want them to go in an additional 0.002-0.004" after the anvil feet touch down on the bottom of the primer pocket. This sets the bridge and maximizes performance and consistency. It is very easy to under-seat primers in the Dillon presses, IME, so you want to hand inspect that they are all below flush with the back of the head.

Remember that manufacturers can control primer seating well and that their brass is new so it's necks aren't bent. If you can get those two things under control, I think you will have made an initial improvement.

As far as your powder choice goes, Hodgdon's own burn rate chart has it slower than BL-(C)2 and 4895 and 4064. The military had H335's parent powder developed because the parent powder for BL-(C)2, which was developed for 7.62 NATO, proved too slow for 55 grain bullets in the AR platform. So I think CFE223 is probably going to do its best work with bullets 69 grains and heavier. It may be best with something like the 77 grain Sierra MatchKings.

In general, the fastest burning powder that safely achieves a given velocity has a shorter barrel time than the slowest powder that achieves that same velocity. For 52 and 53 grain MatchKings, Sierra has Vihtavuori N133 listed as their best accuracy powder. I've also seen Reloader 10X do well with 55's and Reloader 7 is another one Sierra liked for 55 grain bullets. I would consider trying one of those.
 
My experience with a 1:7 Savage F/TR is that the 50 and 55 grain bullets are too light and don't stabilize at all for me. This is in .223 cal.

AT 100 yds, maybe I hit the target board of 3x4' and maybe I don't. 69 gr bullet gives me .5 moa and 73 grain gets me between .5 and .3 moa. This is with 25 gr Varget for the 69's and 22.6 Varget for the 73's.
 
If it's that bad you are probably seeing core stripping. This is where the rotational acceleration is so high that an unbonded lead core will actually slip under the rifling indentations in the bullet. Harold Vaughn was able to measure this happening with a magnetometer in a .270 Win firing light bullets in a 10" twist. Needless to say, when the jacket spins fast but the core doesn't, after exiting the muzzle the core is going to slow the jacket down more than the jacket speeds the core up just because the former is the more massive of the two.

You can prove this is happening by taking some Trail Boss loads using the same bullets to the range and shooting through that 7" twist at roughly half velocity. The gas mechanism won't function, but the bullets should stay on target since they are then only being spun up half as rapidly as was the original case.
 
Just as a side note:
I have been told that Dillon dies are Redding dies. Redding makes them for Dillon.
I can't swear to this, but I believe it's true.

Can anyone here confirm or refute this with 1st hand knowledge?
 
They sure don't look like it. They don't have the same finish and the cutaways at Dillon's site show they are not the same design.
 
Thank you, Nick. I know about the bullet weights and should have phrased that better.

You have addressed the issue I was concerned with regarding the case necks. Was hoping for that.

So, let's set aside the bolt action and talk about the ARs. Let's say I'm working from a supply of 2000 once fired Lake City brass. All different lots and years. Is it practical to neck and body size in separate steps? That is, in a reasonably quick and efficient way?

And if so, can you recommend which Redding dies you would choose?

Buying new cases for the bolt action is not a problem. I'm just wondering how deep I'll be going down the (semi) precision rabbit hole once I start...
 
CFE-223 is on the slower side as far as burn rate for 223 IMO . I recommend a heavier bullet when using that powder . I'm actually in the middle of load development using CFE and 69gr smk . It seems to be doing pretty good . I'm in the process of narrowing down the charge right now and have not tested velocity yet . My chrono was acting up the first time out so I have no data on that . I'm hoping Monday I'll get out to do some testing .

I would try the other powders and see how they compare . My guess is that Benchmark with it's slightly faster burn rate will do better with the lighter bullets . IMR 4895 works well for me with the 55gr FMJ bullets but velocities are on the lower to mid range of what the 223 cartridge can produce but very accurate .
 
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What are the details of your load ? How much CFE223 are you loading and to what OAL ?

I am loading 55 gr Hornady soft points with 27.3 gr of CFE223 and OAL of 2.230. I do not use any crimp. This load shoots five shots in one ragged hole @ 100 yds out of both my AR's with 1/8 and 1/9 twist barrels.
I use a Hornady seating die that has a bullet alignment sleeve to straighten and center the bullet as it enters the case.
I do my reloading on a Hornady LNL AP

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/19...-222-remington-223-remington-22-250-remington
 
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