Impressed one of my mentors 2.25" group with .223, at 300 yards, in light wind...

M

Magnum Wheel Man

New member
not bragging, as there are many of you who can certainly better this, but it was good shooting for me... could use some advice on windage though...

rifle... old school heavy barrel Remmy 700 1 in 12 twist
scope Vortex Crossfire 6-18
Ammo... some old Federal 50 grain hollow point factory ammo

conditions... shot from bench with sand bags, mid 70's temp, low humidity, shooting west, with a 5 - 15 mph NE breeze...

a couple questions...

when I got out to 200 & 300 yards, the bullets seem to favor the "up wind" side... ( I didn't make any corrections for wind at these distances ) so the 2-3" of drift against the wind could this have been spin drift ??? with the slower twist, I wouldn't expect it ( I didn't pull a bullet but assume these were flat based bullets ) could the quartering wind behind the bullets have been pushing the base of the bullets to the left, causing the bullet to steer to the right ??? or was this most likely just mechanical scope error, amplified by the distance???
 
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Is this a known rifle with previously demonstrated groups at center windage for that distance with that ammo? Could there have been a wind direction change between you and the target? Never heard of rounds drifting into the wind but I suppose there are lots of things I've never heard of...:)
 
sighted in the rifle on Saturday, & zeroed the turrets for 100 yards... took a stab at 200 yards at the end of my shooting on Saturday, & put 2 shots touching in the center of the target, & one 2" down wind ( wind was from the SE on Saturday )... then started at 200 yards on Sunday, with a 1.75" group then bumped the elevation 5 clicks, & shot the 2.25" group on a clean target backer just at the lower edge of my target paper ( a, 8.5" X 11" printed target laying sideways ) then bumped the elevation 4 more clicks to put me on the dot on my paper...

so, no, nothing has been previously proven with the rifle, the scope, or the ammo I used...

BTW... the Vortex scope has the clearest view of any of the scopes I've tried at 18X, but the Crossfire turrets are a bit sloppy... I'm looking forward to trying a Viper out soon... hoping the Turrets track a little tighter ???

BTW #2... I usually try to do solo shooting on Saturday, then invite friends to shoot on Sunday, so on this last Sunday, I had a buddy that wanted to shoot 3 different guns, so I only fired the 15 rounds through this rifle on Sunday
 
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Rear fin stabilized rockets have been known to turn into the wind.

Bullets, however, do not turn into the wind. There's no external force applied to them to make them do so.

I've watched the trace of many a bullet curving horizontally all the way to 1000 yards. They all followed the wind. Never seen one curve into the wind.

Therefore, there's some other cause of your situation.

If a quartering wind behind bullets would pushing the base of the bullets to the left, causing the bullet to steer to the right, don't you think all the ballistic programs would have this put into their calculating formulas?

And if that's true, how come no top level rifle coach tells his team members to adjust their sights away from the wind direction so the bullets will hit target center?
 
BART... I certainly understand what you are saying, but I'm not formally trained, I'm shooting light ( for caliber, by todays standards ) & flat based bullets, not boat tails, so I didn't expect that, but didn't know if that was possible with a light flat based bullet??? :o

so most likely, it's that the cheaper Crossfire, is not tracking very true, & is moving right a little as I adjust up ???

BTW... trees almost fully line both sides of my range ( maybe 60% ) my goal is / was 100%, but some trees didn't make it, when 1st planted, some soft Maples grow faster than other hardwoods, so 60% has good protected coverage, but there are gaps, where the bullet gets exposed to full wind, at several places down range... maybe this will make things more challenging, than not having any trees ??? anyway I'm stuck with what I have now... "poor boy" wind flags are all the leaves along the shooting lane :)
 
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Great shooting. Its a gun forum, your alowed to brag here, its great to see accomplishments and personal records broken. I have noticed at 300 yards my 223 can be very influence bey the slightest wind. I personally found the Hornady SST Superformance very accurate out beyond 200 yards. Once again, great shooting.
 
Magnum Wheel Man, it's possible your 300 yard shooting position was different enough from the shorter range ones that would cause that to happen.
 
Appreciate the suggestions... rifle was on the same sand bags, same position, I shoot from a chair, with 1/2 my butt on the chair, & on one knee, usually ( much more solid position than it sounds ) 3 sand socks on the front portion of the stock, & two under the rear... the same for both distances ( my shooting bench is about 8ft off the ground, in my "shooting shack" & I shoot through a shallow valley, I use empty steel 55 gallon drums as target backers, at the various ranges, my back stop is at 300 yards & the target backers sit in front of my backstop for 300 yards...I can stagger the drums, so I can shoot 4-5 different distances without having to go down range )... so I didn't even move from my chair between my 200 & 1st 300 yard group, shooting on Sunday... I did go down range ( driving my Mule ) to better see the group between 1st & 2nd 300 yard groups...

now that I think about it, I was getting a couple irregularities doing box with this scope... I bet the movement moved point of impact to the right a click or so, with 9 clicks up ( the amount of clicks between 200 & 300 yards )???
 
"Boxing" groups to test a scope's repeatability is, at best, going to be no more accurate than the size of the smallest group shot doing so. Every one of these groups will have the shooter's and ammo's and rifle's errors introduced into them.

To get results within 1/4 MOA of reality, you need to be able to shoot your stuff repeatably no worse than 1/8 MOA if you feel "boxing" is the way to go.

Stick an optical collimator in the barrel then zero your scope on its reticule. Move the scope's adjustments 2 clicks off then 2 clicks back in one axis and one direction. Do the same up, down left and right adusting both ways each time. See what the error is each time; the biggest error is what you'll have to contend with. This is about 10 to 30 times more accurate than any "boxing" routine.
 
^^^ no question about that... tried to do a box test with a 22-250 before fully testing for groups... I knew I was in trouble when I went 8 clicks up, & the 2nd shot went through the same hole as the 1st :o

I have an old Tasco screen type bore sighter, & a full set of spuds, that I almost never use, as I just start with one shot at 50 yards, & then work my way from there, normally... would that work for running a box to accurately test the scope???
 
I have an old Tasco screen type bore sighter, & a full set of spuds, that I almost never use, as I just start with one shot at 50 yards, & then work my way from there, normally... would that work for running a box to accurately test the scope???
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No, I don't think so. But do what your're comfortable with.

Well, wait a minute. I just checked some on the 'net and they look like my Sweaney Sight-Align bought back in 1971. It may work as long as the spud's well tight in the bore. I'd clamp the rifle in a bench vise to ensure the collimator stays put and doesn't twist from handling. I learned that with my Sweaney collimator.
 
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Is your scope installed with the crosshair plumb and level. If the crosshair is not plumb, the adjustments will continue to walk away from center of the target. To test this you need a target with a plumb line marked on it. Set up as tall a target as you can at 100 yards and Mark a line with a level. Mark a horizontal line near the bottom. Use that as your aiming point for every shot. First shot is set for 100 yrds zero. For each shot after that adjust up 2 minutes. Continue shooting until you run out of paper. Your bullets should hit near the plumb line all the way up ( within the accuracy of the gun/load/shooter). If the hits drift one way or the other consistently, then the scope is not installed level. You may want to tape several pieces of paper together for this one. The hight of your barrels should be plenty.
 
You can check your scope's alignment by clamping the rifle solidly and level on a bench with the scope aimed at a vertical line. Then adjust elevation and see if the reticule tracks that line. Several variations of this are also possible.
 
I think the hardest part of this is finding a flat level spot on a rifle... I've even seen turrets that weren't square with the crosshairs, so if the receiver doesn't have a flat top, got any suggestions on where to pull level from ???

looked over the scope & rifle again, & if the scope is at all canted, the scope could be slightly canted to left ( wouldn't explain the movement of the POI right with elevation change ??? )
 
I've layed a short bubble level across the flats of the receiver when the two lug bottoms ride. Those are reasonably flat and horizontal compared to where the scope mount bases sit.

Or, if your scope mount or bases, use one of them.

And I've even took off the butt pad then plumbed the two screw holes vertical to get the rifle set up.

You can check adjustment tracking by clamping the scope in a vise then running an adjustment from stop to stop. The reticule wire in that adjustment plane should stay on something all the way back and forth. If it moves up or down, then the adjustment axis is not parallel with the reticule axis.
 
Yeah I was thinking you might be canting your rifle when you shoot . That would cause your shots to be off left or right at distance . I have a huge canting problem . I was shooting to the right no matter what rifle or sights . I installed a anti cant level on my long range 308 rig .Now when I know the rifle is level the reticle looks canted .The scope not being plumb is always possible . I used the the bases to put the scope level on . This is the scope level I use http://www.amazon.com/Wheeler-Profe...377021883&sr=8-2&keywords=wheeler+scope+level I like it because you clamp the level to the barrel . Once that is in place and level you can move the rifle around all you want and it stays level to the rifle .

I have that very scope on my 308 as a temp and I can confirm that the turrets do not track 100% . It does how ever hold zero great if you don't mess with anything . I think mine changes POI from low to high magnification as well . I would also agree that the scope is very clear with good eye relief .

Here is a pic of the scope with the anti cant level on it

guns148.jpg
 
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I have a bubble level that fits on a Weaver base, that I bought for longer range hand gunning with my Contenders... I should look & see if I have enough base left on the front ( 2 piece ) base, to get my level on there...
 
You can check adjustment tracking by clamping the scope in a vise then running an adjustment from stop to stop. The reticule wire in that adjustment plane should stay on something all the way back and forth. If it moves up or down, then the adjustment axis is not parallel with the reticule axis.
Click to expand...

Bart, that takes all the fun out of it.:D. But it does save ammo.:rolleyes:
 
METAL... I like that style of level, looks like it flips in & out being spring loaded ( is that what I'm seeing ??? ) the one I have for the Contender, doesn't stick out as far, but is rigid & clamps onto a Weaver base, like the scopes do...
 
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