Impersonating a policeman

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Doug.38PR

Moderator
A while back on TFL in Tactics and Training, I remember somebody posting a thread advocating an idea his CHL instructor told him that it was a good idea for a CHLer to get a badge and hold it up when you see a crime committed saying "CHL holder, call the police" as nobody can see a CHL license from a distance.

Now, I am not trying to bring back up that particular thread (it was closed because the moderator considered it a bad idea). Everybody, myself included, seemed to agree it was a bad idea. But for different reasons. I was kind of amused. "CHL holder, call the police" ??? :confused: Most people don't even know what a CHLer or license itself is and would think "he's a what?" :confused: :p A badge seemed absolutely pointless to me and would mean even less than a CHL license to most people out there. Other people on the thread seemed to think it pointless as well.
Other people however said that he could be arrested for impersonating a police officer if he was carrying a badge. If people see you with a badge and a gun they will assume you are a cop. Which brings up the point of my thread.

In my mind, there is a big and legal difference between you impersonating a cop and someone assuming you are a cop.

In the minds of some in that thread, just people assuming you are a cop is considered impersonating. But if you follow that line of thinking all the way, then a fireman can be considered impersonating a cop. Their official uniforms resemble police uniforms to some extent. Heck, there are a lot of official uniforms out there from ordinary guys wearing blue shirts and black pants to exterminators, to meter readers to UPS guys to security guards. All of which if the casual observer looked could conceivably consider them a policeman and ask for aid. Heck if they saw your gun in some way they could assume you are a policeman.

In my mind, if a man walks up and identifiys himself as a policeman, flashes a badge or purposefully presents himself physically or verbally as a policeman of some kind then that is what impersonating a police officer is. It is an attempt to deceive.

Someone assuming you are a policeman is not you attempting to deceive but someone mistaking you for something you are not. The fault is theirs not yours.

What say ya'll?
 
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I think it was in "The Truth About Self Protection" that Masaad Ayoob suggested it was always a good idea for an armed civilian in an encounter to shout out for the police. If I yell "POLICE!" after all I am simply calling for the police. I can't help if a criminal with a guilty consciense misinterprets that. It is only natural for a citizen in distress to call for the police after all...
 
Thats a tricky thing. I would like to think that you would actually have to make an effort to let others know that you're an officer in order to be charged with impersonation. I see nothing wrong with having a badge for whatever reason. Flashing a badge is a form of ID for anyone, not just law enforcement. I know a volunteer firefighter(alcoholic *******) who pulled some people over with his blue lights for cutting him off and never expressed that he was LEO in any way, but was charged with impersonating an officer. While I personally am smart enough to know when someone is a cop, many do not. Because it is so easy to impersonate an officer, I think the law must be very strict in this manner for the protection of those who don't know any better. How far do you take it though? I think it's a double edge sword. If something happens and your the only one around who can help then you would appear like LE for those not in the know, thereby leading them to believe your LE with a gun drawn on someone. If your intentions prevented harm and helped those in need then I believe you should be clear. If your actions resulted in harm or harrassment then you should be charged.
 
on VWVortex (another forum), a member who owns a white/green VW Golf with the word "polizei" written on the side... and his car was impounded. He was charged with impersonating a police officer.

About five years ago, a Ford Crown Victoria was designed for car audio competitions. Its design included a fake spot light on the drivers side, and thick stripes up the side of the car, like that of a Police car. The words on the door read "Audio Kustomz". One day, on his way home from the competition, the man was pulled over and his vehicle was impounded. He was also charged with impersonating an officer.


As much as I feel it should be the way Exar stated... sadly, it is not. If a badge, regardless of what it says, is similar to that of the LEO, you would be charged.
 
If I see a firefighter I will know he is not a LEO because he is not wearing a firearm. same with my UPS guy.

However, If I see someone in plain clothes wearing or flashing a badge, and packing or possibly brandishing a weapon, I,and I believe that most folks,will associate the two of those and think LEO.

I think in a firefight situation,flashing a badge,and your CW could lead bystanders to believe you are a LEO, and could have BAAADD consequences.
 
About five years ago, a Ford Crown Victoria was designed for car audio competitions. Its design included a fake spot light on the drivers side, and thick stripes up the side of the car, like that of a Police car. The words on the door read "Audio Kustomz". One day, on his way home from the competition, the man was pulled over and his vehicle was impounded. He was also charged with impersonating an officer.
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Given the large amount of al Crown Vic police cruisers I see that have been sold off at auction this should get tossed out pretty quick. I see old crown vic with the side spot light and the lights in the rear windows all the time. Often I think they are unmarked traffic enforcement (sometimes they are) only to find out uopn closer inspection they are an old security company or police car, sold off at auction.
 
Yeah, I always slow down a little when i see the Crown Vic with the spotlight coming towards me, then I notice the hunched over granny behind the wheel.:D
 
The badge is a dumb idea and any prosecuting attorney trying to get a conviction on someone who didn't identify themselves as police, but bystanders assumed he was a policeman is even dumber than a badge. You know what they same about assuming.
There is a huge difference between saying "I'm a cop" and someone assuming you're a cop.
If you carry a CCW badge though I do believe you should be arrested for stupidity..........ooops wait unfortunately stupid isn't a crime yet.
 
About five years ago, a Ford Crown Victoria was designed for car audio competitions. Its design included a fake spot light on the drivers side, and thick stripes up the side of the car, like that of a Police car. The words on the door read "Audio Kustomz". One day, on his way home from the competition, the man was pulled over and his vehicle was impounded. He was also charged with impersonating an officer.
Click to expand...

Maybe he was actually impersonating a taxi driver?
 
While I am thinking about it, I think it was Interventor_45 who said a few weeks ago that he got confronted in a Florida courthouse for carrying a magazine in his pocket. He was allowed to proceed by one guard and stopped by another guard later told he would have to take it back to the car. It was found out later that the first guard allowed him to proceed because he THOUGHT he was in Law Enforcement. Was Interventor_45 impersonating a police officer? They didn't think so.
 
You can't always control the perceptions of people, but you can take certain common sense measures not to place yourself in a position of liability. I knew this one idiot back in college who was a compulsive and pathological liar. Oh buddy, the stories I could tell from that guy would have most people ROTFL at his brazen stupidity... anyway, he never came back to school after the summer and we started asking around at where he was... come to find out... he had come up short of cash so he bought a light bar with his credit card, installed it in his POV, pulled people over posing as a LEO in an unmarked car, then tried to coax his victims into paying cash for 'traffic infractions' on the spot at a reduced rate. I'm not sure how he got busted or whether he got any money out of the scheme, but the dude was washin' with soap on a rope come fall registration day.
 
LOL Adephue
We had a couple of knuckleheads try that a few of months ago in either Tampa or Orlando. Unfortunately for them their first traffic stop was a real unmarked police car. They also got busted for the coke they had in the ashtray. Stupid is as stupid does.
 
Odd that you should mention badges. There must have been a "idiots convention" tonight. I was eating out and I think I was the only person in the eatery WITHOUT a shiny badge on my belt. I saw a myriad variety from deputy coroner to volunteer firefighters, security guards and a mentally handicapped guy with a special deputy license plate on his bicycle. I don't recognize badges. A photo ID with a control number is all I recognize. A Class A uniform is not a sure thing either. Exterminators DO wear LEO-style uniforms. How does BEST BUY operate their Geek Squad with badges and b/w VW bugs?
 
Thanks for the heads-up, Doug.

Yes, I did have that strange thing happen. I'm pretty sure that most police will look at your intent when they're deciding if you are impersonating. But, I'm finding out, there aren't really any guarantees.

I think that on a very technical level, I was impersonating an officer. But that's only because I was clueless at the time the security people were assuming I was one.

Somehow, either it wasn't written in the laws or I had missed that ammo is the same as guns in the eyes of some. So I thought it reasonable to take ammo into the courthouse as long as I "declared" it, as I declared my cell phone, keys, change, anything else that might set off suspicion.

But it turned out that they didn't want ammo inside and held it for me until I left. So far, I was still clueless. I had to go back in the afternoon, and went to a different checkpoint at the courthouse. The personnel there threw a major hissy fit and made me take the ammo back to my car.

I did that, and returned to the checkpoint. By the time I got there, they had gone downstairs to the first checkpoint I had gone to and figured out what happened. Downstairs they thought I was an officer. Upstairs, they didn't make that assumption and wouldn't extend the "courtesy" of holding it till I finished my business.

At the time, it all ended in a laugh, except for one deputy who didn't seem to have much of a sense of humor. But he was outnumbered 10 to 1.

But at no time did I think I was putting anything over on anyone, I just had no idea.

Turns out that yesterday something similar happened. I had to go to the Pompano Beach police station. The visitor parking, which holds maybe 10 cars, was full. I didn't want to park illegally at the police station, of all places, so I went a little beyond the lot. I didn't see any other signs, so I parked in a bigger lot. I later found out that was a police personnel lot, but the sign apparently had blown down during Wilma.

Ok, so I am still thinking I'm in a public lot. I again don't want to leave my ammo with my gun, but I know I can't bring a gun into the station. I put the ammo in my briefcase and went to the door.

Since I was in the employee lot, I ended up at the employee door. I thought it looked strange for a public entrance, but that's what the public entrance in Oakland Park looks like, so what the heck.

I buzzed and an officer opened the door. I asked if it was the public entrance, since it did look odd to me, and he said it wasn't. I then asked where that was, and he decided to walk me there.

On the way, I informed him I had clips in my briefcase and also asked if I was parked in the right place. That's when I found out I was parked in the wrong spot. The officer asked if I minded if he saw the clips, so I took them out and showed him (all this took place because it is a big building and a long walk). He said it would probably be better to take them back to my car, so I did that. He came along.

We got there and, as I was opening the door, he asked where the gun was. I said "in the glove box, you want to see it?". He said no, and I explained that I asked because police officers have widely varying responses to gun owners and one had even asked me in the past if I wanted to sell mine to him. He said he just wanted to know where it was to "make sure I wasn't going to hurt him with it".

All of this was spoken as if we were discussing the weather, in a very offhand way.

I stuck the clips under the floormat, locked the truck, and went with him into the station and conducted my business. On the way, he asked me if I had a gun in the very stuffed briefcase. I answered no, and he took my word.

Although this last story isn't really directly thread-related, at least down in South Florida the cops all seem to operate in a fairly common-sense mode. While I'm sure that if, in the courthouse incident, somebody COULD have made an impersonating issue if they didn't like my looks or something, that was not even mentioned. They saw it for what it was. My cluelessness combined with their mistaken assumption.

I'd bet I could have beaten any impersonation charge in court pro se. But if the law (I still haven't checked) includes ammo, I could probably not have beaten that. I did bring ammo into the courthouse building, and I intended to. I didn't know better, but I don't think that would have been a defense.

Since I relayed the Pompano Beach story, I might as well add something.

I have a stalking problem, and that's often taken lightly. I expected to be dismissed as soon as I walked in the door. But the presence of the gun and ammo got the attention of the officer who walked me to the entrance, and probably kept his interest in hearing my entire half-hour long story along with another deputy. The first one was clearly on his way out when he first ran into me.

I'm sure that the reason for that was they wanted to interview me to see if I was up to something. Since I absolutely positively wasn't, other than the mistaken parking, I ended up getting more help than the average customer.

So, sometimes things are not quite so cut and dried. Sometimes officers are uneasy about your gun but they just don't want to be shot. I'd say impersonation is a gray area.

I saw one post about having a blue light being impersonation. Down here it's a trend to drive around with little decorative blue LEDs on your car. I think technically it's improper equipment, but I doubt you'd ever see an impersonation charge from it.

On the other hand, it's not uncommon to see what's clearly an unmarked car on the highway. It's notable because it's usually a Crown Vic and has two blue rectangles barely visible through the back window. These, of course, are their lights. If I put two blue pieces of plastic in the same place, and had a Crown Vic, with the plan to pull people over and rob them, but had not yet done any robberies, I'm sure I could beat an impersonation charge. They're just junk visible from the back window. In this case, REAL impersonation would almost certainly pass.

That's why I think this is a gray area. Intent and perception get really mixed up here.
 
In Kansas there is no "shall law" no public CC. Licensed Private Detectives in Kansas are eligible for CC permits. A few years ago the Atty. General made badges available to PIs with CC permits in addition to a paper license. The two must be displayed/kept together. The badges are authorized by the Atty. General and issued by the Kansas Bureau of Investigation. It would be hard to accuse a badge holder of impersonating a LEO short of the PI making such a statement. Just buying a badge at the local Five and Dime would be a bad idea IMO.
 
(1) Don't think that everybody who posts on these boards tells the truth. We don't know whether an instructor recommended the badge, or not. (I'm guessing not. (2) Get your legal advice from a real lawyer, not somebody like Ayoob.
 
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