I cast lead bullets with a Lee 125 grain 9mm mold and use a Lee Loadmaster press. I'm using IMR 700X Powder and for my reload data I use Lee reloading book. My question is after making some test rounds to try out at the range I find I have inconsistent powder and OAL measurements. The powder is under the max load but I get a difference of right where it should be or .1 to .2 grain higher, but still below max load for that type of powder. I set my bullet seating die and factory crimp die with a Federal 9mm round. The OAL is between 1.150 and 1.155. I feel the OAL is because I use unsorted range brass and that's causing the different measurements. I just want to know if this inconsistent powder and OAL measurements is going to cause any problems. I don’t think it will from what I have been reading online but I figure it can’t hurt to ask and being new to reloading I want to be safe. Thank you
I'm new to reloading and have a question
- Thread starter dlmmist
- Start date
I'm not familiar with that powder, but .1 gr isn't a bad spread for something like Power Pistol, which is low density (therefore more volume) compared to something like Titegroup, which has a high density, in which case .1 is more significant. It could be your powder measure or it could be that your powder doesn't meter well. I'm sure someone here can advise you on how well IMR 700X meters. If you're below max load you'll be safe.
As far as your 0.005 spread in OAL, I wish mine was that good. I sort my 9mm brass and usually get a 0.01 spread. Case wall thickness varies between headstamp and can affect OAL because tension can vary. There are a lot of factors that affect powder metering and OAL. You will always see a variation in both. As long as you are below max, you'll be safe. Be aware that a shorter OAL results in less volume under the bullet and therefore higher pressure. What you don't want is an excessive upward swing in load at the same time as you get an excessively short OAL.
I've never had a problem, but I use a low load that's just enough to keep my power factor at about 130. If you aren't seeking a heavy charge lower your load to just enough to reliably cycle your gun and you'll have nothing to worry about.
As far as your 0.005 spread in OAL, I wish mine was that good. I sort my 9mm brass and usually get a 0.01 spread. Case wall thickness varies between headstamp and can affect OAL because tension can vary. There are a lot of factors that affect powder metering and OAL. You will always see a variation in both. As long as you are below max, you'll be safe. Be aware that a shorter OAL results in less volume under the bullet and therefore higher pressure. What you don't want is an excessive upward swing in load at the same time as you get an excessively short OAL.
I've never had a problem, but I use a low load that's just enough to keep my power factor at about 130. If you aren't seeking a heavy charge lower your load to just enough to reliably cycle your gun and you'll have nothing to worry about.
trapper9260
New member
I go with what was stated ,but you can adjust your OAL .Just take your time Because I make sure my OAL is mainly on . If I do for handgun get .01 I do not worry much about it but for what you are getting I would correct it.Use a bullet puller to help to make the adjustment .
OAL is not related to mixed brass case length, it's just the very small variance in bullet diameter and inside case diameter which causes different seating pressure. The only thing that is constant on a press is the shell plate and the dies. Most progressives will throw +/- .02 grains of powder depending on whether its a sugar powder or corn flake powder. Also +/- .004" on AOL is about right. Always use the powder makers load data, Hodgdon shows 2.9-3.4 grains of 700X at 1.125" OAL. And depending on bullet weight and shape, the OAL can vary from 1.050" to 1.165" for a 9mm. Some guns like CZs like short loads, Glocks can handle long loads.
Last edited:
One of my first questions is, "How are you dispensing powder"? This will be the most likely suspect for me.
With 700-X, I have found that any type of automatic powder dispensing will be inconsistent. This is why I despise 700-X and can not wait to get through the 1/2 pound I have left. It MUST be hand weighed (each round) with this powder. It is too light and flaky to properly go through a powder measure with any consistency, I have found, especially on charges used on small pistol rounds.
OAL length of 1.150 vs 1.155 will not be the issue. This is too little of a difference to make any difference.
I do not cast, so am unaware of any variable that your personal made bullets could be. However, I suppose if you have different weights mixed, by a couple of grains each way, that could cause some inconsistency.
With 700-X, I have found that any type of automatic powder dispensing will be inconsistent. This is why I despise 700-X and can not wait to get through the 1/2 pound I have left. It MUST be hand weighed (each round) with this powder. It is too light and flaky to properly go through a powder measure with any consistency, I have found, especially on charges used on small pistol rounds.
OAL length of 1.150 vs 1.155 will not be the issue. This is too little of a difference to make any difference.
I do not cast, so am unaware of any variable that your personal made bullets could be. However, I suppose if you have different weights mixed, by a couple of grains each way, that could cause some inconsistency.
g.willikers
New member
A variation of .1-.2 in your powder drop ain't bad.
As for the overall length of the loaded rounds, you could start with the maximum that the magazines will digest and go from there.
You should have a chronograph, just to be able to know what's what.
It's not a major expense and a very handy tool to have.
As for the overall length of the loaded rounds, you could start with the maximum that the magazines will digest and go from there.
You should have a chronograph, just to be able to know what's what.
It's not a major expense and a very handy tool to have.
In my opinion, as a new reloader you have quite a number of things going wrong for you.
First of all, I know you have a Lee manual, but your post leads me to believe you have not actually read ALL of the great information in that book - or maybe you just skimmed it in your hurry to begin reloading? You really need to sit down and carefully re-read the book - ALL of it, not just parts that you think might be interesting or apply specifically to your intended cartridges.
Next, I personally do not believe any new loader should be using a progressive press - ANY progressive press. And especially not a Lee Load Master, which has a reputation of being finicky and hard to use. I personally like Lee and do much reloading on both the Pro 1000 and Classic Turret presses, which I love - so I am not bashing Lee in any way. I also have not personally used a Load Master, but I feel very strongly that you are ABSOLUTELY WRONG to try and learn to reload using any of those presses. Others are free to, and certainly will disagree, but in my opinion, the ONLY thing a new reloader should be using is a single stage press.
More importantly, you are starting with a small little cartridge that makes things more difficult. This is not terrible in and of itself, but you would be far better off with something like a .38 Spl or .44 Spl to learn on. If you only own 9mm, well, I guess that will have to do.
Next, 700-X is a very poor choice for a new reloader when combined with a dinky little cartridge. Once again let me stress that I personally LOVE 700-X, so not bashing it - it is an almost perfect powder for light to mid-range handgun loads in all respects except one: it is a coarse flake powder and can give inconsistent throws out of some measuring equipment, ESPECIALLY for a new reloader that does not already have good processes and techniques developed along with an understanding of the issues involved. If you will read the note at the bottom of the powder capacity chart that came with whatever Lee auto powder measure you are using, you should see a caution about using course flake powders in smaller cavities - they put that there for a reason.
You didn't tell us what charge you are trying for, but my guess, based on the 125g lead bullet, is that you are around 3.0g 700-X. If so, you must understand that you are right at the bottom of the range where you can expect consistent powder throws from most measures with 700-X. the variations that you will see are not dangerous, UNLESS you happen to have a problem with powder bridging and do not catch it (one of the BIGGEST reasons you should NOT be using a progressive press at this point). 700-X charges are usually only a very small part of the case capacity, which does allow a catastrophic double charge if you make that error. I do not personally load the 9mm, so I cannot say for sure that can happen with the toy cartridge, but I caution you nonetheless.
Finally, you say you are using the Lee FCD - you will find a big split in opinions about using the FCD at all. Some of us feel it is best avoided unless you have a specific problem you need to address with it, other do like to seat and crimp in different stages. However, I think the majority of knowledgeable loaders will recommend that you NOT use the FCD with lead bullets, since it can easily swage them down to a point where they do not properly fit the bore.
I know you have already purchased all this fancy equipment and want to use it, but I urge you to step back and think about it. Everything you have is good stuff, and none of your money has been wasted. But you really should also have a basic single stage press and some loading blocks to start with until you develop those all important good habits and processes. Good luck and do try to load safe. I commend you for at least coming on this forum and asking your questions!
First of all, I know you have a Lee manual, but your post leads me to believe you have not actually read ALL of the great information in that book - or maybe you just skimmed it in your hurry to begin reloading? You really need to sit down and carefully re-read the book - ALL of it, not just parts that you think might be interesting or apply specifically to your intended cartridges.
Next, I personally do not believe any new loader should be using a progressive press - ANY progressive press. And especially not a Lee Load Master, which has a reputation of being finicky and hard to use. I personally like Lee and do much reloading on both the Pro 1000 and Classic Turret presses, which I love - so I am not bashing Lee in any way. I also have not personally used a Load Master, but I feel very strongly that you are ABSOLUTELY WRONG to try and learn to reload using any of those presses. Others are free to, and certainly will disagree, but in my opinion, the ONLY thing a new reloader should be using is a single stage press.
More importantly, you are starting with a small little cartridge that makes things more difficult. This is not terrible in and of itself, but you would be far better off with something like a .38 Spl or .44 Spl to learn on. If you only own 9mm, well, I guess that will have to do.
Next, 700-X is a very poor choice for a new reloader when combined with a dinky little cartridge. Once again let me stress that I personally LOVE 700-X, so not bashing it - it is an almost perfect powder for light to mid-range handgun loads in all respects except one: it is a coarse flake powder and can give inconsistent throws out of some measuring equipment, ESPECIALLY for a new reloader that does not already have good processes and techniques developed along with an understanding of the issues involved. If you will read the note at the bottom of the powder capacity chart that came with whatever Lee auto powder measure you are using, you should see a caution about using course flake powders in smaller cavities - they put that there for a reason.
You didn't tell us what charge you are trying for, but my guess, based on the 125g lead bullet, is that you are around 3.0g 700-X. If so, you must understand that you are right at the bottom of the range where you can expect consistent powder throws from most measures with 700-X. the variations that you will see are not dangerous, UNLESS you happen to have a problem with powder bridging and do not catch it (one of the BIGGEST reasons you should NOT be using a progressive press at this point). 700-X charges are usually only a very small part of the case capacity, which does allow a catastrophic double charge if you make that error. I do not personally load the 9mm, so I cannot say for sure that can happen with the toy cartridge, but I caution you nonetheless.
Finally, you say you are using the Lee FCD - you will find a big split in opinions about using the FCD at all. Some of us feel it is best avoided unless you have a specific problem you need to address with it, other do like to seat and crimp in different stages. However, I think the majority of knowledgeable loaders will recommend that you NOT use the FCD with lead bullets, since it can easily swage them down to a point where they do not properly fit the bore.
I know you have already purchased all this fancy equipment and want to use it, but I urge you to step back and think about it. Everything you have is good stuff, and none of your money has been wasted. But you really should also have a basic single stage press and some loading blocks to start with until you develop those all important good habits and processes. Good luck and do try to load safe. I commend you for at least coming on this forum and asking your questions!
Thanks all, I do agree the IMR 700X is hard to use, the flacks do seem to be large and don't work well in the Lee hopper. What I do is when using the 700X I visually look inside each brass after the powder has been loaded to check for consistency. I also weighted every round to make sure powder was measuring correctly, with the other powders I check every 5 rounds. I also have Accur #5 and #7 powder and find it works much better in the Lee hopper. I have only ran 50 rounds of each using the different powders. I also used a Lee Adjustable Charge bar and it worked every good with the #5 and #7 powders, but not very good with the 700X. For the 700X I used the auto disk with the hopper. I also do have a single stage Lee press and think it would be a good learning experience using that to reload especially with the 700X powder so I will try that and also read my books more carefully. For my OAL I did use the barrel from my gun to test the rounds and a magazine to insure a proper fit. I like the idea of a chronograph and will be looking in to that. Below is the data I used.
125 grain lead bullet
IMR 700X start grain 2.9 max 3.4 MIN OAL 1,125
124 grain lead bullet
Accur #7 start grain 5.7 max 6.5 MIN OAL 1.050
Accur #5 start grain 4.7 max 5.4 Min OAL 1.050
All of my powder measurements were no higher then + .2 grains above start load data.
125 grain lead bullet
IMR 700X start grain 2.9 max 3.4 MIN OAL 1,125
124 grain lead bullet
Accur #7 start grain 5.7 max 6.5 MIN OAL 1.050
Accur #5 start grain 4.7 max 5.4 Min OAL 1.050
All of my powder measurements were no higher then + .2 grains above start load data.
Your ammo, with those variations, will prolly be just fine. Depending on the powder measure, some pistol powders won't give less than a 1/2 grain variation. A better manual for shooting lead bullets is Lyman's Cast Bullet Hand book or even Lyman's 48th Edition Reloading Handbook (good for various cast bullet shapes/sizes).
Mauser69's post is, as far as I'm concerned, 100% correct...
Mauser69's post is, as far as I'm concerned, 100% correct...
JeepHammer
Moderator
A user a while back showed a way to get the Lee charge disk to throw more consistant loads by flat surface polishing the components.
I went back and did similar to mine, and it made a difference in both the amount of powder it wasted/leaked and consistancy of the charge weights.
You simply take a very fine sanding/polishing media taped to a piece of glass and flatten out the charge disk.
Flatten out the high spots, radius the holes so the powder 'Funnels' into the disk,
Very slight breaking of the edges was all that was required,
And take off any burrs.
I did the bottom side of the powder bin and the slider face over to the drop funnel while I was at it.
No more hang ups, no more leaking powder, consistancy got better.
I also trimmed a powder bin baffle and installed it, which seemed to help with consistancy also, but by far the best thing I did for powder delivery was polishing/deburring the powder throw assembly.
I went back and did similar to mine, and it made a difference in both the amount of powder it wasted/leaked and consistancy of the charge weights.
You simply take a very fine sanding/polishing media taped to a piece of glass and flatten out the charge disk.
Flatten out the high spots, radius the holes so the powder 'Funnels' into the disk,
Very slight breaking of the edges was all that was required,
And take off any burrs.
I did the bottom side of the powder bin and the slider face over to the drop funnel while I was at it.
No more hang ups, no more leaking powder, consistancy got better.
I also trimmed a powder bin baffle and installed it, which seemed to help with consistancy also, but by far the best thing I did for powder delivery was polishing/deburring the powder throw assembly.
While I understand your thinking and have heard this a lot, I mostly don't agree. Perhaps if you are not at all mechanically inclined or are disorganized, you'd be better off. However, if you are shooting pistol and use several hundred rounds per month, I think someone could become frustrated with how slow a single stage loads. Especially someone that's not retired and doesn't have a lot of time to spare. Plus, the skills and habits don't translate one for one.
I think the main issue with learning to use a progressive press is to not lose track of what you are doing, especially when you have a stoppage to fix something and miss charging a case. At least that was my problem: I had some squibs in the beginning. Yes, it's easier to charge 50 cases and then look into each one, but you eventually have to learn to do that on a progressive and it doesn't work the same as on a single state. I can't think of anything else that would be a safety issue. Other problems you might have, you can have with either press, like seating depth or high primers. The latter is never a safety issue and the former is unsafe only if you are at max load and seat too deeply.
I've been reloading since the early 1970s. I've used single stage C and O frame presses, turret press, and progressive. I load for rounds ranging from .22 Hornet to .458 Win Mag in rifles and .32ACP to .45Win mag in pistols.
I sold my progressive about a decade ago. I do agree that a beginner should not start with a progressive. The main reason is that if something is wrong, there is so much going on at once with a progressive it can be difficult to pinpoint the problem.
A .1 or .2gr variation is as good as you are going to get with some powders using a powder measure. If you want more precise (and for most things its NOT needed) you need to weigh each charge and trickle powder until you get them all precisely the same.
a .005" variance in your COAL can be a number of things, and usually isn't significant, particularly in pistol rounds used at short ranges.
One thing to consider as a possible source that no one else mentioned yet, is your PRESS. Rotating parts MUST have some clearance in order to move. Turret press or progressive, the clearance needed for movement means there can be some "flex" in the system. Good equipment, correctly made and maintained means the flex (or "spring") is kept down to levels where it is usually not a concern, but it has to be there or the rotating parts won't rotate.
Quite a different thing from a single shellholder and die in a single stage press.
.005" is a pretty small amount, it is entirely possible your press is part, or all of the variance. It's simple enough to check, weigh and measure a small lot of cases (new or once fired, same headstamp), the idea being to get them as uniform as possible. Do the same with the bullets. Make sure your seating die is CLEAN (just a little crud like lube from cast bullets can mean different seating depths), check the bullets for consistent lengths. Load carefully and see what level of variation you get.
Good luck!
I sold my progressive about a decade ago. I do agree that a beginner should not start with a progressive. The main reason is that if something is wrong, there is so much going on at once with a progressive it can be difficult to pinpoint the problem.
A .1 or .2gr variation is as good as you are going to get with some powders using a powder measure. If you want more precise (and for most things its NOT needed) you need to weigh each charge and trickle powder until you get them all precisely the same.
a .005" variance in your COAL can be a number of things, and usually isn't significant, particularly in pistol rounds used at short ranges.
One thing to consider as a possible source that no one else mentioned yet, is your PRESS. Rotating parts MUST have some clearance in order to move. Turret press or progressive, the clearance needed for movement means there can be some "flex" in the system. Good equipment, correctly made and maintained means the flex (or "spring") is kept down to levels where it is usually not a concern, but it has to be there or the rotating parts won't rotate.
Quite a different thing from a single shellholder and die in a single stage press.
.005" is a pretty small amount, it is entirely possible your press is part, or all of the variance. It's simple enough to check, weigh and measure a small lot of cases (new or once fired, same headstamp), the idea being to get them as uniform as possible. Do the same with the bullets. Make sure your seating die is CLEAN (just a little crud like lube from cast bullets can mean different seating depths), check the bullets for consistent lengths. Load carefully and see what level of variation you get.
Good luck!