I'm from the government, etc...

C

Coinneach

Staff Alumnus
http://www.denverpost.com/news/news0819h.htm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
SWAT team members, seven of whom were dressed in hoods and camouflage, stormed the Heflin ranch buildings, including the family's home, without knocking and announcing entry, plaintiffs allege. During a search for evidence in the assault case, specifically Heflin's bloodied shirt, cowboy hat and some cigarette packs, SWAT team members pointed guns at small children, including Heflin's 4-year-old granddaughter. Her mother said the little girl was chased down a hall with a red laser beam from an assault rifle
positioned in the middle of her back.
(Emphasis added)
[/quote]

Tell me again that only the government should have guns. I need a laugh after reading this.


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A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil.
Vote Libertarian - For A Change.
 
First off, Hurrah to the judge for allowing them to sue on use of excessive force. IT's about time someone realized that it doesn't take a SWAT team to arrest someone for MISDEMEANOR!

Secondly, Shame on that Judge for rejecting "...plaintiffs' claims that using foul language and detaining adults at gunpoint constituted excessive force."

This family, IMHO, was definetly denied thier rights. What ever happened to the old knock at the door, and "can we speak with Mr. so-and-so" ... etc...

Now they just barge right in, don't even show you the warrant when asked for it, nor allow you to ask what they are even there for.

Believe me, I know *I'll* start wearing a firearm around the house, and if *my* daughter comes screaming in from the yard, it will be drawn and ready to fire. These guys are just *asking* to be shot at.
 
TR,

I already *do* wear a firearm when I'm at home. Paranoia or preparation?

Unfortunately, I have no DEW line like kids or dogs. However, if I'm reading in bed and the kitties come racing into the room with tails bushy and ears laid back, I'll be damn glad I've got guns on either side.

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A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil.
Vote Libertarian - For A Change.
 
Hmmm, DEW line, I'll have to give that some thought ... the kid isn't always at home ... I've been thinking about convincing the XO (wife, and it fits more than she'll admit to) that we should get us a Dawg ... :)
 
I used to be marginally on the side of "carrying in your own home is silly"...until one night my garage door opener activated for no immediately obvious reason. Not even having a knife handy at the moment, I had to spend what could have been precious seconds going to fetch an appropriate tool before investigating the phenomenon. Fortunately it was just a faulty remote control. It did clarify the point that when an "incident" occurs, it will happen very suddenly and leave no time for "preparation".
 
this is what we should expect as our police force become more militaristic...


they are not peace officers

dZ
 
Amazing...

Simple petty "assault" charges (ie. fisticuffs)...suspect has no record. They send in a SWAT team of 10 or so who would have killed everyone there had things gone bad.
Do they (authorities) not have anyone able to think? What ever happened to appropriate response?

Yup....only police and military should have guns....my @ss.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Guys,

This type of crap is happening more and more. What is it going to take to put leashes on these people? And, why is it that every jerkwater jurisdiction needs a SWAT team? It must be federal law enforcement money and a macho thing.

I remember the days if a police search was conducted on a domicile, the warrant had to be issued to the people in the house. Not kick in the door, tear the place apart, terrorize everyone in the place and then hand out the warrants. I suspect that the reason they hold back the warrant is because if they find illegal things not listed, a quick fax can solve that problem.

Don't get me wrong, I know that there are situations that force of this magnitude is necessary to keep the criminals from flushing drugs or not giving a real bad boy time to get a weapon. But like DC said, all this for a misdemeanor offense? Makes you wonder 1) do these cops have that much time on their hands? and 2) Whose relative did this guy punch out?

Just as an interesting side note, I once worked with a guy from Poland. He was here on a political refugee visa. I asked him about the way they did things in Poland. He said that the police needed warrants. They could not just kick in doors unless they knew the bad guy was a real threat. They had to convince a magistrate that the cops were in danger serving the warrant in order to use more than needed force. Are we sinking below what a communist country did? Sure looks like it. Just my two cents.

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Joe Portale
Sonoran Sidewinder
Tucson, Arizona territory
 
10 guys to serve a misdemeanor assault warrant on a guy with no criminal record? Holy Sh*t, Batman! The inherent wrongness of it all aside. if I were a taxpayer in that county, I'd start a class action suit for felony stupid misappropiriation of public funds. Then there's the civil rights suit for 4th amendment violation. Unless they found something really serious there that justified this farce, I'd want everyone of those in command in another line of work ASAP. Geezus H., what a fustercluck.

M2
 
The police must have training, equipment, and methods to combat truly dangerous people - like drug dealers, etc.

Once the expense of the training, equipment, and continuing training is known, the expense must be justified by using the training, equipment, and methods being bought!

Overkill, such as Waco, Ruby Ridge, and incidents such as this become increasingly frequent.

In an assault case, the excuse of "possibly flushing the drugs down the toilet" does not apply. Therefore, the only argument which can justify these tactics is "officer safety".

But that can be taken to the extreme of killing everyone who is not an officer! Of course, that's silly and unfair to say... we have to have some taxpayers left. ;)

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited August 20, 1999).]
 
Joe, Drug prohibition is one of the main reasons these tactics have been allowed to proliferate along with many other abuses to our civil liberties. I don't condone drug usage, but also think it is none of the governments' business what an individual chooses to ingest. Individuals should be held accountable for how they behave towards others. I agree that certain proven bad guys could require this kind of response, but they should be rare and I venture they would be rarer if illicit drug trade was made unprofitable. Our local beer distributors don't shoot it out on the corner-anymore. Drugs are bad. Trashing the Constitution is worse.
 
In Nashville we just had the owner of a local store....its reported as Rags to
Riches.....arrested as part of the most recent nationwide sting on cocaine distribution, they have confiscated his "expensive automobiles", the goods from his store space, and probably his home by now........so much for innocent until proven guilty....fubsy.
 
Is an Undersherrif the same thing as a deputy? Sounds kinda "Storm Trooper" to me, in a Nazi so nice kinda way.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The judge denied assertions by Sheriff Duke Schirard, Undersheriff Robin Harrington and SWAT team tactical commander Deputy Kelly Davis that they have immunity from suit. He said they were aware of departmental policy, yet they allegedly deprived the plaintiffs of their right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures. The trial is set for April 3.[/quote]



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Want to feel your age?Check it out. http://web.superb.net/boy/age1.html
 
All:

I hope the family ends up owning everything that the Sheriff, Undersheriff and all the SWAT team members own now or will own for the rest of their miserable lives.

The point about every hick town and backwater county in the US having SWAT/SRT capability is well taken. But money once budgeted and obligated, personnel once trained and formed must be used...unfortunately they're often used at inappropriate times and situations.

My experience has shown me that some of the officers drawn to SWAT/SRT duty are insecure of their manhood...in many cases military or SF/SEAL/RANGER wannabes who did not (or could not have) made it through the selection process (physically and/or psychologically) for those types of units. So they go with the "next best thing".

Although many of these types of teams are well led, well manned, well trained and used properly (and are certainly justified in certain major metropolitan, county or federal jurisdictions), all to often they are not...they are a tragedy waiting to happen, IMHO. This capability is needed only after a valid, in depth threat assessment based on intel and actual data indicates a requirement. Also, you don't need to duplicate a capability already present. IOW, why should the city of EBF Mississippi have a SWAT team when the County Sheriff and/or the Mississippi Highway Patrol already have such a capability? I don't think a lot of thought is given to this process. Unfortunately, innocent people pay the price for this horse****.

Mike
 
This kind of crap will continue to escalate untill it is point blank stopped.

The officers who pointed guns at little kids - JEEEESSSUUSSSS!
Those guys HAVE NO REASON TO BE ON THE FORCE.
They have forgoten the whole POINT of Law Enforcement. PROTECT THE INOCENT.

I gave a couple lectures on Bushido, and of Samuri - The Word means TO SERVE. And the Police motto: TO PROTECT and SERVE.
These SWAT OFFICERS should commit sepuku to restore there honor. And the Captain that ordered this - should be the first to do so with out a man acting as his "second."

This kind of thing OUTRAGES ME.


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"America is a melting pot, the people at the bottom get burned while all the scum floats to the top."


RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
The Critic formerly known as Kodiac
 
Where were these valiant heros back on April 20? Cowering behind a fire-truck until the shooting stopped? Herding unarmed escapee students at gunpoint? Restraining parents willing to risk THEIR lives?

It would appear these TWAT squad (Twerps Wussies And Toadies) bully boys prefer unarmed opponents, preferably the very old and very young to intimidate.

Rank and file law officers, for the most part, despise these prima-donna "jack-booted thugs".(Copyright NRA) ;)

Let 'em get jobs in the military (Chinese).

My .02

[This message has been edited by Joe Mama (edited August 21, 1999).]
 
Joe Mama:

"TWAT Team"??!! I like it...ROTFLMFAO!

A old friend of my (ex Army SF and Ranger Regt) resigned his commission several years ago...joined the FBI. He has always worked in the DC area since graduating from Quantico. He considered going though selection for the HRT but after working with HRT and training with them occasionally (he was on the part time FBI SWAT team that worked the DC metro area) he found that he couldn't stand the attitudes represented by the majority of the HRT members...said he and other FBI agents called the HRT the "Hostage Roasting Team".

Mike
 
I get very disturbed when it takes 10 men to serve a warrant. I'm LEO, and the most people we need to serve a warrant is 3. One to watch the back door, one to watch everyone in the house and one to handcuff the fugitive. That's it. Most of the time, I can call them up, tell them what's going on, and have them come on in. No questions from the neighbors, no hostile crowds and no embarrassment for the fugitive. Especially one who has never had a criminal record. Otherwise, I just knock on the door, introduce myself, explain why I'm there and make the arrest.

As to the search warrant, same concept. Now if the search area is going to be a large one, of course get more people, for efficiency's sake. However, many search areas can be covered by two or three people, if it is most homes and vehicles.

Now, what works where I'm at-does it work everywhere? No. There are cases when you need a SWAT team, but when to use one needs to be carefully thought out. Otherwise, you'll end up with more and more clusters like this one, and eventually the taxpayers have to dig deeper into their pockets to pay for government excesses.

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Maintain eternal vigilance. It is the people who are prisoners of their own ignorance that pose the greatest threat to our 2nd Amendment Rights.




[This message has been edited by Matt19 (edited August 21, 1999).]
 
Well said Matt.
Thank you.
You articulated what I was too angry to say.

Things like this... Terrible.
I think action should be taken in this case...
Just saying - yup - that was FUBAR aint enough. Checks and Balances need to be put into place.
Just cause a civiliam makes a mistake doent mean he is an Enemy of the State! What if one of those kids had a squirt gun? My boys regularly open carry an squirt of other toy gun!

Excessive force CAN be harsh profane language in front of small children. That kind of language should no tbe used by anyone in a uniform any way. It detracts from professionalism, and insites hostile actions - which I am sure is what these thugs wanted. These HEROS... Swearing turns you - Your no longer an Officer - or even a "COP"... you have slid into a GANG and your just wearing your "COLORS."

I hope Matt, that you remember that...
Rob - You too...
You guys are our modern Samuri - Always hold your self to the HIGHEST STANDARDS of profesionalism. Make sure all your actions are BEYOND reproach. Your job is TO SERVE. Ever hear the phrase "Public Servant?"
That's right... Acurate. And you can't do that without COMPASION. Next time you are in a situation with a child or spouse presant - take a moment to comfort them and let them know what real JUSTICE is and that it is for every one.

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"America is a melting pot, the people at the bottom get burned while all the scum floats to the top."


RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
The Critic formerly known as Kodiac
 
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