I'm considering abandoning resizing

C

ckpj99

New member
Ok, please talk me out of this.

I've been working with 45-70 loads for the past two or three years. Right now, it's the only rifle round I'm loading, and I'm only loading it for one gun.

I'm mainly using Star Line brass, which is advertised as tougher/thicker/whatever (they say that the necks often have to be annealed if you want a complete gas seal).

My loads are in the trapdoor level, very low pressure. The cases chamber fine after they've been shot and cleaned. The neck tension seems almost exactly the same as when I do my normal case prep.

So, what is the downside of just skipping the resizing processing??
 
I'd say off-hand general uniformity, consistently, and accuracy. Not a step you really wanna miss.
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I'm not a reloader, nor do I have any ambition to be one but I do find reloading videos on YouTube somewhat hypnotic. :D

The resizing step seems pretty important regardless of pressure.
 
Pffft, no way... no way.

I mean -- those guys! ;)

If your brass ejects easily and you can reprime, charge, seat (& crimp) AND you can re-chamber the brass with no problems, you're good to go.

This is pretty much EXACTLY what many of us are doing with bottle neck rifle rounds when we elect to neck-only size for bolt-action rifles. Some folks even believe that they can make MORE accurate ammo because the brass needn't expand to fit their chamber as it's already fireformed to their chamber.

Totally do it, then report back.
 
I have never tried not resizing with anything but my .30-30 round ball loads...

I simply decap, prime, dipper charge, and then seat a .310" round ball flush with the case mouth with a brass mallet...

Neck tension is always the same, and the ball does not move under recoil in a magazine, or loose in a pocket...

I'd say if your bullets do not move under recoil in a mag, then you are good to go however you load...
 
I have an 1888 Winchester High Wall in 45-70. I shoot mostly black powder in it. I wash the Starline cases after each excursion, and sometimes tumble them. The only time I resize them is when using smokeless, as I need neck tension to hold the bullets in place. Even then, I just resize about ½ of the neck, and flare the case mouth.

With black, I have a volume load that I compress maybe .2", after inserting a card wad cut from tablet backing. The resulting powder column comes to exactly the same place in each case making a stable platform onto which to seat a bullet... it won't go any deeper into the case, that's for sure. Thumb seat the bullet, and run it up into the seating die (sans seating punch) to put a mild crimp on it. Shoots great.

Added benefit is that the case holds just a little bit more than 1 grain more black powder for the same parameters when it isn't resized.

But then the case and chamber geometry work really well with the 45-70. I wouldn't attempt this with a bottle neck case, or really anything other than a tapered case like the 45-70, 40-65, 38-55, etc. with cast bullets sized appropriately, and I would be reluctant to do so with smokeless, as some neck tension is necessary, in my view, to hold the bullet in place so it doesn't slide down into the cartridge upon chambering. Also it is a single shot rifle, not a tubular magazine, so there are no forces acting upon the round other than the force of chambering it with one's thumb.
 
Really interesting discussion. A couple responses:

MarkGlazer - I have about 150 piece of brass. 100 of those I bought new and have used. The rest were factory rounds that I shot or pulled. I've loaded each of the cases using the regular method two or three times at this point.

stubbicatt - neck tension was also my chief concern, however, it seems fine. I use 405 and 500 grain lead bullets that have a big "gripping surface" (I'm sure there's a name for it). A good half inch of bullet is set into the case and these bullets have straight profile.

salmoneye - I'm using a single shot gun, and I don't crimp my cases anyway. So no recoil induced set back to worry about.

Sevens - The fireforming thing was what led me to ask the question. I do tumble my brass to clean it up.

Pistol 14 - The only really reason I can think to resize is that the case might be expanding and growing at different rates for some reason, but at the pressure I'm running and especially with Star Line brass, I just don't think the cases are changing shape much. Plus, I've heard that the resizing process actually work-hardens brass more than the firing process.

Again, folks, I'm open ideas here, but I keep having this nagging feeling that all the resizing and flaring isn't doing anything.
 
CKPJ99. Is there sufficient neck tension to seat your bullets and keep them in place in "as fired" brass? If there is, I would be a little bit concerned that your chamber is too tight, and not releasing the bullet upon firing.

Changing gears just a little bit by way of illustration, the minimum clearance I run on a 6.5x47Lapua match chamber is .003" using jacketed bullets. By this I mean the resized, bullet seated, case neck diameter is .003" smaller than the chamber neck dimension. This assures that the neck pulls away cleanly from the bullet when the round is fired.

If your 45-70 brass "as fired" still has enough neck tension to hold a bullet firmly in place, personally I would be neck turning my case necks to give me some additional clearance. Or having the chamber opened up in the neck dimensions to assure proper release and stable pressures.
 
I briefly tried "slip fitting" bullets in my .40-65 Browning which is used only for BPCR silhouette and midrange target shooting. I heard pros and cons on it and stayed with full length sizing, but one of these days I would like to wring it out. As much for the savings in labor as anything.
 
Stubbicat - I think the fact my cases keep there neck tension has more to do with pressures of my loads than anything else. I posted recently about some staining that was appearing my cases due to gas blowing back past the case mouth. I'm not getting a perfect seal anyway because the loads are really low pressure (and then there's the star line brass thing). I was actually hoping the not resizing would create a better gas seal.
 
I don't resize the whole case for my 30-06 bolt gun, I only size the neck. It helps make the explosion more consistent to the chamber. That along with selecting specific brass cases that give the most consistent velocities goes a way to improving upon accuracy. They are my hunting rounds and the most accurate rounds I have.

However, I always resize for a semi-autos to help ensure cycle reliability. I have a 45-70 Sharps that doesn't seem to like to re-chamber any cases (even empty ones) after they are fired. So thus, I have to resize them anyway. If I were you, I would try it out though.
 
I'm in a constant battle with pressures because for accuracy I'm shooting heavy bullets, but I'm not going to jump into lever gun pressures because the recoil would be unbearable. 500 grains going 1250 fps about of an 8 lbs gun is bad enough. If I saw the same accuracy out of 300 grain bullets that I saw out of 500 grain, I'd use them. I swear! My shoulder would make me use them.
 
For a single shot gun, you don't have to size at all. The downside/problem is that the bullet can move in the case simply by being handled/carried, etc. Some bench shooters do this all the time and have no problems. At your pressure levels you won't find much case stretching with this caliber. I just keep mine in the plastic box tip up and I'm careful with them. Again, only applicable for a single shot.
 
Try it and see. I don't suggest it, but it's your choice.

I experimented with doing that with .38 ammo, and it failed. One straight case to another is not an exact comparison, but still, I don't recommend it.
 
I was also concerned about neck tension and the bullet moving around, but my test proved it wasn't a worry.

I'm not sure if it's due to low pressure or the bullet design or the brass, but once the bullet was seated, it was not going to move from handling. I'd go as far to say it wouldn't move under recoil either. I had to exert just as much more with my bullet puller as normal to get the bullet out.

I've attached a photo of the bullet I'm using. As you can tell, it's not like the case is grabbing a thin crimp groove. The case makes contact with the entire bottom half of the bullet.
 

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Not resizing is working for you because you are basically in a "perfect storm" situation where it will work acceptably well.

You are using black powder, lead bullets, in a single shot, with an (essentially) straight case.

Change any of these factors and you will have poor results.

Schuetzen target rifles have used separate bullet & case quite well. Both ways, the bullet loaded through the chamber, followed by the charged case, and with the bullet loaded through the muzzle, driven down the barrel (like a muzzleloader) with the charged case inserted into the chamber.

Again, using black powder.

Smokeless requires some kind of tension (neck or crimp) for efficiency. Different actions require a firm hold on the bullet to ensure feeding and not coming apart under recoil (revolvers, etc)

In a way, its like coasting down a smooth road on a bike, doing the "look MA, no hands!" thing. You're sailing away just fine, all good. Until you need to do something else, then if you don't have your hands on the handlebars, you are going to have trouble. ;)
 
ckpj99,

You might verify the hold on the bullet.

Size a case. Measure the OD at the mouth and again about where the middle of the bullet would be, and again just above where the base of the bullet would be. If you still have a new case somewhere, check one of them, too. Then measure this for an unresized case. Finally, seat bullets in both cases and measure again. If the fired case grew any less, the hold it has on the bullet is likely less.

The reason I suggest this measurement is that case mouths can remain slightly curled inward after firing. It's a good idea to make sure it isn't only the curled lip you are feeling seating resistance from. (below is a .308 case where you can see the curl.)

It could be your pressures are low enough that this is not an issue, but it can't hurt to check.

Neckcurledin_zps085e0876.jpg
 
44 AMP - I completely agree. I am by no means advocating that resizing is unnecessary in general. It's just the more I work with these specific loadings in this gun, the more comfortable I am with the idea of resizing.

I've loaded for 30-30, 7.62x54R, .38 special and .380. I would never consider skipping the resizing step with these calibers. But as you said, it seems in this specific case, it should work. And I think it might help create a better seal at the case mouth.

unclenick - Thanks for this. This will definitely help me to see if I'm missing something.
 
So, what is the downside of just skipping the resizing processing??
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Your round is operating at such low pressures, I doubt you really need much sizing, other than a neck size. I recall reading that Harry Pope had some sort of everlast cartridge case. He fired, maybe, 250,000 times. I really doubt he sized it.
 
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