I'm confused about bullets

F

FUD

Moderator
Most people view either the .357magnum or the .45ACP as the ultimate man-stopper. Recent studies/research seems to indicate that the .40S&W might have a slight edge but for the purpose of this thread, let's keep it simple and just focus on the .45ACP and the .357magnum ...

It is widely accepted that the 10mm is superior to the .45ACP (at least that was the intent when it was developed) with balistics that approach the .41magnum.

"ballistics that approach the .41 magnum" -- this implies that the .41magnum is more power than the 10mm and certainly more powerful than a .357magnum.

That being the case, why is the .41 magnum viewed as not as good as a man stopper when compared to the .357magnum and the .45ACP? Consequently, the .44magnum is ballistically superior to the .41magnum but that too is not viewed as a superior man-stopper when compared to either the .45ACP or the .35 magnum.

Why is that?
 
The .41 Magnum never really caught on with its intended audience -- police. It has been pretty much regulated to a hunting gun by a small cadre of very loyal followers.

Thus, many of the advances in bullet design, the high performance hollow points that are designed to deal with humans, have never been applied to the .41 Mag.

Thus, there is virtually no baseline for comparison between the .41 Mag. and other, more popular, calibers.

Ideally, the .41 Mag. should be a WONDERFUL police and defensive cartridge.

But try getting a selection of ammo for it. You'll find several kinds of soft points, and maybe two or three types of hollowpoints.

To the best of my knowledge, there's no Hydrashok, Nyclad, Gold Dot, GoldenSabre, Talon, etc., bullets for the .41 Mag.

There USED to be Silvertips, but I think they have been discontinued.

I got a .41 Mag. (S&W Model 58) a few months ago, and I'm falling in love with the freaking thing.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
What's to be confused about, FUD. If enough bullets go down the barrel, and hit where they are supposed to, chances are good that the BG will go down too!! :)

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Yeah, I got a permit to carry,it's called the friggin Constitution.---Ted Nugent

"Glock 26: 17 rounds of concealed carry DEATH comming your way from out of nowhere!!! THAT'S FIREPOWER, BABY!!!"
 
FUD confused?? Say it ain't so. ;)

I'd agree the .41 magnum "never caught on" in the cop market or we'd hear its praises more often.

As for 45/357 I think the 357 is definitely "more powerful" on paper and on the street.. however not everone likes that LOUD boom and muzzle flash (esp. in small frames) and very FEW autos (coonan, deserst eagle) are chambered/designed to use for the rimmed .357 cartridge.

Apples and oranges.

Put your bullets on target and it won't matter. Your average 357 holds six rounds, your average 45 holds eight. You get two more chances at a CNS hit with a 45.

BTW my 1917 colt army revolver doesn't kick at ALL compared to firing the same round in a full sized 1911.. wieght helps.

Anyone else?
 
Mike pretty well pegged it. Bullet availability.

41mag is a great cartridge, so few tho that there hasn't been sufficient market to justify tooling up for a variety of loads.

An aside, the .40S+W is about on a par with hot .38spec loads. 10mm "approaches" .357 mag defensive loads. Most defensive loads are rather mild. I can "approach the white house with a FAL slung over my shoulder, but ain't gonner get close to it.

Sam
 
Fud,

I agree with Mike's information and the posts that endorsed it. My limited experience with the .41 mag fired from an "N" frame Smith suggests it's a terrific "weapons system". However, if its aggregate popularity is such that you can't obtain the rounds you want for it, sadly it becomes a less-than-ideal choice.

When I retire and start to reload on a large scale basis, I intend to pursue the .41 mag as a carry weapons -- perhaps in a four-inch "N" frame Smith (similar to the Mountain Gun in .45 ACP).

Regards.
 
Could it be the amount of energy the bullet brings to the target?

If a .44 mag goes flying through a person without even slowing down, the energy of the round isn't totally dumped into the target. If a .45ACP stops in the person, all of the energy has been dumped in the target.

Just a guess.
 
When you can find em the Sierra HC#8500, 170gr, .41mag clockin bout 1200 out of a 4" bbl is a mild shooter that kicks ***. Same bullet and bbl at 1500 is gettin toward upper bang levels. These are both out of a 4"bbl. Penetration and expansion.

Sam
 
I would have to rate the 10mm and the .357mag as pretty much equal in all aspects. The .357 might hold an edge on potential penetration for hunting purposes. Both, when loaded to full pressure, will propel a bullet of equal weight at about the same speed. As for the .41 and .44 as a defensive weapon, there just aren't any self defense bullets made for them. With the right bullet however, they will definitely stop better than just about anything else out there. Winchester does make a 200gr silvertip that they load for their .44spl. I would imagine that if you put that into a mag. case and pumped it up, it would do terrible things to someone. Ouch!
 
There is a very good article on the .41 Mag., in the Sept. issue of The American Rifleman.

I am one of those "loyal fans!" If one were to want it as a self defense round, both Fed., Win., and Rem., make a very fine 210 grain J.H.P. that will flat put an attacker down. Several years ago, I killed a 400 lb black bear with my S&Klinton Mdl 57, using the 210 gr JHP. (Sierra) One shot, and the bear was dead very quickly.

There ain't too many 400 pound bad guys out there, folks.

I know a Compton (Kalif.) P.D. detective, who carries a Mdl. 58. He loves it and he's had to use it to save his life.

I reload for my revolver and my Marlin .41, but if I didn't, and wanted it for self defense, I'd never be worried using the factory JHPs.

FWIW. J.B.
 
I thought this was a very good read for anyone packing for self defense. It was written by the FBI Firearms Training Unit, and is an analysis of handgun wounding factors. It certainly gave me a lot of objective information, and helped dispell a lot of myths about "stopping power" etc. Hope it helps.
http://www.gunnery.net/hwfe.html
 
To compare the 40 S&W to a hot 38 special is a bit like comparing the performance of a 4 cylinder Chevy Prizm to a 6 cylinder Honda Prelude. The 40 has a lot more energy, a lot more momentum, and has a larger diameter to boot. - sleepy
 
The correct .410" load was a 180g Gold Dot, loaded in the 41 Action Express.

(still have some for my carry 41AE, get'em going about 1020fps)

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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
Hi Sleepy...it was a rough off the top of the head comparison. Just went into my notes and came up with....

Current winchester data....40s&w, 150gr, 1200fps at MAX pressure.
Old notes in Lyman book from when I was mfgr, .38spec, 148gr, 1200fps chrono out of 3" bbl. Great expansion and penetration. Not for I or J frames.

Look pretty close to me. Close on other wts too.

Sam
 
CR Sam,

What Lyman issue was that? 35th?

That load was probably with 2400 powder.

That load is not duplicated in any loading manual made today.

Simply put, it's WAY too hot.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Mike, note was in 41st edition, AL5 powder.
Printed chart in that book shows same bullet with 2400 powder at 1380 but that out of 6" I think. The Alcan seemed to work better than 2400 in the shorter bbls.

Those loads never left the property for obvious reasons. All the bullets for the hotter loads were sized for the individual gun. Didn't want one to get into a .354 Colt. Later learned there were even tighter Colts around.

Sam....deaf n twitchy
 
In general, revolvers are built for more powerful rounds. the .41 Mag rivals the hottest standard auto pistols, the .44 Mag exceeds them, and if you want to do MAJOR damage, shoot the bad guy with a .454 Casull or .500 Linebaugh.

I think this is because the revolver has no reciprocating action parts. Can you image how big and heavy the slide would have to be on a .454 Casull Automatic, and how soon it would batter itself to death?
 
One other thing to consider, most people chooose the .357 or .45 acp for concealability. It's kinda hard to conceal a .41 or .44 mag. Where concealing a snubby .357 or numerous .45's is fairly easy. Heck, if you could just tote around any caliber, why not a .50AE?
 
I think the answer is really easy, in layman's terms, "Big deep hole is what you want."

The .41 mag is a bad bad caliber that will knock you on your a$$ and drop you in a second. But, how many people have been shot by this round? That is where the statistics lie to you. Mike is right.

In reality, they are all about the same (.45ACP, .40S&W, .357Mag) it will drop a guy when properly placed. The key is the properly placed part.

Albert
 
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