If you HAD to pick one of these two chambering/rifle combos for this hunting niche...

U

Unlicensed Dremel

Moderator
For a rifle which is dedicated to the following hunting type or niche:

--hilly AND wooded terrain
--for game size "cow elk and smaller" (i.e. less than 500 lb game)
--iron sighted for inclement weather

So a hilly woods rain rifle.

Which of these two chamberings would you pick for this rifle: .30-30 win (in the form of a Marlin 336) or .454 Casull (in the form of an LSI/ Rossi Puma 92)? Assume 16" barrels for both.

If the criteria were "mulies or smaller", clearly the .30-30 would win out - you have plenty of power and more practical range.

But when adding cow elk into the mix (100-150 lbs more than the biggest mulie buck), would the additional terminal performance of say, a 300 grain .454 casull, over a 170 gr .30-30, be worth it in terms of added killing power, to overcome the tradeoff of loss of practical range (which in my case, with poor eyes, with iron sights, means a reduction from about 150 to about 100 going to the .454)?

Or is the .454 Casull even a proven demonstrably-superior terminal performer over a .30-30 to begin with, which would result in a lower likelihood of tracking and / or losing game? Same terminally or is the .454 better? (And don't say: Just use 190 grain .30-30s to equal the .454 in terminal performance, because I want to use factory ammo for this rifle).

So which one wins purely from an extended range vs. terminal performance tradeoff of the two cartridges alone? Then after answering that, if you add in the lighter weight of the Puma 92 to the mix, would that change or not change your initial choice for this use? Obviously, the 92 is handier / lighter, which makes a difference in this type of terrain.

Two other small wildcards - lower cost and more availability of .30-30 ammo, and more recoil of .454, but I'm considering those two factors negligible for this thread.

Thanks.
 
Personally I would opt for the Marlin in .30-30, plenty of power for the range you describe. 170 grain bullets and I would actually opt for a good quality lower powered scope with covers but that is just preference. Open sites will certainly do the job.
 
Yeah, the .30-30 is the way I went; just trying to decide if I should change it up (Whether I can justify the Puma 92 puchase at some point. :) )

I'd like to put this scope on the Marlin eventually:

http://swfa.com/Leupold-25x20-FX-II-Ultralight-Riflescope-P3264.aspx

but cannot afford it right now. It IS certainly easier to scope the Marlin than the Puma 92, so that's a factor, too, in favor of the .30-30 / Marlin.

I will put the FX-II on in QD mounts so that I can pull it off if it gets too fogged up to use (goes from light to heavy rain). I find that scope covers don't really work for me. If it's raining hard, you can't stalk or sit with the covers off, and there's no time to pop the covers open before the game is gone, once you come across game -usually.

Also, I suppose there's always Buffalo Bore 190s, for a factory heavy-duty round. 16" trapper still said to get over 2,000 fps:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/24...eted-flat-nose-box-of-20?cm_vc=ProductFinding

The 1 in 10" twist of the Marlin should handle the 190s and the reviews are scant but positive (4.8 average) on these, including accuracy claims. Very expensive however - but that's a minor expense considering losing an animal, in the grand scheme.

Thanks.
 
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I'm wondering if this is some kind of theoretical exercise or if those are really your only two choices based on ownership. Kind of reminds me of the old adage "When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail".
 
I just want a levergun for this purpose, and I think these are the two best bets for what I want. I have plenty o' bottlenecked-round, scoped turnbolts for most all hunting scenarios, but I wanted a lightweight, lever action "rain rifle", and narrowed it to these two (but also considered .45 colt Puma 92). How come - got a better idea for me? I'm all ears. I suppose an iron sighted mountain style turnbolt might be superior, but honestly, I just want an excuse to have/ keep at least one non-rimfire levergun - watched too many Westerns, I guess. (Not to mention that mountain-style light turnbolts don't come with iron sights any more - or does the model Seven still have iron sights on some submodels? If so, that would be an option - in .260 of course).

To clarify, I HAVE a 16" marauder-style 336 (.30-30), but wondering if the .454 should be substituted for this purpose, as a significant increase in terminal performance out to 100 yards on large cow elk (i.e. as a significant decrease in tracking time spent)? Gonna be doing a lot of this type of hunting in snow and rain in the coming years, as I'm moving to a Rocky Mountain state in 2 weeks. So, no, not theoretical at all, really. For bull tags, too much is at stake to not have a canyon-crosser (bottlenecked turnbolt), just in case of a long shot, so I'll just keep wiping the lenses on my turnbolt scopes, and carry a dry cloth at the bottom of the fanny pack. But for deer and cow elk in inclement weather, I want this handy, fairly-lightweight, KISS, niche rifle. (Also, honestly, since I am now down to ZERO ARs / zero semi-auto rifles, this levergun doubles as a homestead defense rifle as well, better than my turnbolts). Kinda got away from EBRs in the last few years, for a variety of reasons.

Think I'll probably stick with the good ol' .30-30.... wait - unless I can find a Marauder in .35 rem to split the difference - ha ha, the grass is always greener, no?
 
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or does the model Seven still have iron sights on some submodels? If so, that would be an option - in .260 of course).
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I've got one of those (.260 too - original 18.5" barrel with iron sights)- it is my favorite little rifle. Perfect size for a tree stand. Better be prepared to get out your Gold MasterCard though - prices on them have gone through the roof lately.

For a "rain rifle", I certainly would not choose a lever action. Way too many places for water to get into that you can't easily disassemble. I also have a rifle built specifically for rain - stainless Encore with composite stock. I wanted something I could completely take apart and clean if it got soaked. I bought it when I lived in Fl (hunting season and hurricane season coincide).

My problem with deliberately carrying a rifle with a very limited range is that invariably you'll see animals outside that range on the days when you carry it. Just Murphy's law. In fact, that is why I bought that Model 7. I hunted with a scope-sighted 30-30 that year and my one and only chance at a meat doe would have been close to 300 yds. I resolved right then that I would replace it with something equally light and compact but with greater range.
 
I've got one of those (.260 too - original 18.5" barrel with iron sights)- it is my favorite little rifle. Perfect size for a tree stand.
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Luckyyy! Nice. And frankly, that comes in lighter than the Marlin 336, too.

Excellent food for thought.

Yeah, I really can't shell out for one of those original 18.5" Model 7s. I did see some of those prices; yikes. But could get a 20" model 7 and/or add sights etc. But I'd rather have a no-gunsmithing solution here. Aren't the laminated wood stock ones usually in 20" and always have the iron sights? They are out there used if not also new. .260 and 7mm-08 would be the obvious top choices.

Hmmm, maybe my 10 contender pistol in .357 max could work, but I just don't think it's enough gun for cow elk either - it's scoped anyhow; no iron sights on it. Not to mention blued and no buttstock. That's a tree stand gun; won't be doing much if any tree stand stuff in the new place.

But rain is gonna get inside any rifle, no? Heck, water is easier to get out of a turnbolt than a levergun, right? Any way you slice it, you need to take the stock off and really air it out in the dry house after the hunt. My Marlin is parked, not blued, but I'd still want to take it down after a really wet hunt, and spray some WD40 in it, followed by oil.

My problem with deliberately carrying a rifle with a very limited range is that invariably you'll see animals outside that range on the days when you carry it. Just Murphy's law.
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Yeah, then there's that - good point. I guess I'll just have to wait and see if I get caught with my pants down, and just how woodsy it is in the new place - looks like it's really wooded where most of the hunting will occur - more wet & woodsy than most rocky mountain areas. Murphy does tend to follow me however. But, that's why I say, too much too risk for a bull tag, to not have a long-shot-capable rifle. But then again, it's probably too much to risk for a monster mulie or whitetail buck hunt, too. But then again, on the other hand, your shots in the rain are usually limited to 50 yards or so anyway. I guess Murphy would come into play like this: Whitetail hunt. Forecast calls for rain or heavy snow all day. Take the Marlin. For some reason, skies clear unexpectedly, and a 170 inch buck steps out across the lake, meadow, or crop field at 200 yards. Commence to kicking self for not having scoped .280 on me. :) That wouldn't bother me on a doe, cow elk, or little buck deer, but it would bother me a lot on a big mulie or whitetail buck (obviously).
 
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Heck, water is easier to get out of a turnbolt than a levergun, right?
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Absolutely. The best "rain rifle" repeater would be a bolt-action with a composite stock and either a trap door or detachable box magazine. Pull the bolt, separate the stock from the action, open up the magazine well, and everything is open to drying/cleaning. A little compressed air and a spray can of CLP and you're back in business in minutes.
 
When it comes to hunting in rain or snow I always end up with the same rifle. My stainless synthetic model 7 in 7-08 Rem. But no irons it wears a Leupold VX 2 , 3-9x40 with butler creek flip up covers. I use it for brush/short range/jump shooting. Have never not got a shot that would be attributed to the second or so it takes to flip the covers. Low power wide angle scope mounted correctly for me is faster and more accurate than irons. But trust me I understand justifying a "need" for a different shooting stick.
 
If confined to iron sight ranges, I'll take the bigger bullet every time. Obviously both are up to the task, but starting with a .45 caliber hole is a lot more certain than hoping to expand to one, and your more likely to see an exit hole.
 
Of your choices, the 30-30.

But from a practical perspective a bolt rifle wins in every category. You can buy a bolt gun new and have irons added for less money than a 336C will cost you new if you just have to have them. But I've found quality modern optics to be more rugged, just as weatherproof in inclement weather, and if magnification is kept in the 1X or 2x range faster to get on target.

A bolt rifle will not only be cheaper, but lighter, more accurate, more weather resistant, more reliable, and is just as fast for "AIMED" repeat shots. They come in much more powerful chamberings too.

This Marlin 30-30 is literally the heaviest rifle I own at just under 7 lbs. Scoped it would be closer to 8 lbs. The ones with pistol grips are about 1/4 lb heavier. My 300 WSM is 7.5 lbs scoped and is the 2nd heaviest rifle I own.



This rifle chambered in 308 weighs exactly the same with a 2-7X scope on it, is the same overall length, will cost less new than most Marlin 30-30's sell for used, shoots well under 1 MOA and is just as effective on the game animals you listed at 40 yards as at 400 yards.

I realize aesthetics are more important to many people. If that is your primary purpose then a traditional walnut stocked lever gun in 30-30 is a good choice. But it does have limitations. I have and use both, but I'm at the point in my life where practicality usually wins over aesthetics.

 
Personally I'd go with the .454. The Swift A-Frame loads look like the ticket. Swift claims they retain weight fine at rifle velocities.

I would not choose to hunt elk with a .30-30 given reasonable alternatives. it would work, but many many things would work better. I figure I owe it to the animal to put them down right there with one shot if at all possible.
 
Well, just my opinion but if you really want a lever action, why not look for something like a Browning BLR in .308? Short, light decently accurate and the power to reach out should it be necessary.
I hunt cow elk in New Mexico right up on the Colorado border and shots have run from 75 yards to 350 yards. I've been using a .35 Whelen and 30-06 over the last five years and have put five cow elk in the freezer. I haven't found a longer barrel to be all that much of a handicap sometimes carrying a .300 Win. Mag. with 26" barrel.
A .308 shooting something like a 165 gr. Speer Hot Core for deer and replacing it with the 165 gr. Nobler Partition for your cow elk, or better yet just use the Partition for everything.
When it comes to really tight cover, try the rain forest of California or an even worse heavy cover hunt try the rain forest of the Olympic Peninsula of Washington state. I've hunted deer in the former and elk in the latter with rifles having 22" and 24" barrels. Never was a problem. Hunted deer and elk here in Arizona off and on for years using rifles with barrels from 18.5" to 26" again never finding heavy cover a problem.
Anyway, check out a Browning BLR. You just might like one.
Paul B.
 
Tough call. I have a few 30-30's and they're fine but if I wanted a little more oomph to knock down a cow I would go with the 30-40 Krag. Ideally that's 10 more grains of powder and even bigger projectile.

Of course if you want it in a lever that means finding a Winchester 1895.
 
I'll second the .30-40 Krag, and also add that its a shame the .308 Marlin Xpress didn't work out. The 308 MX in a stainless Lever gun might have been just the ticket.
 
If you want a lever action Id go for a 45-70. Lots heavier bullets than the 454 or the 30-30. But I am very bias.
 
I will throw another one into the mix, the Marlin .444. I had one, it was very accurate and powerful under 100yds. I also had a 45-70 in stainless and it was pure awesome!

If you are going iron sights, I would look into peep sights.

Then going back to my roots, if I'm looking for an all around rifle that can put food over the fire and be dependable as the day is long, get a 30-06 bolt gun in synthetic/stainless(Ruger American comes to mind). It will be light and the recoil will not be conducive to plinking but its just a great tried and true hunting round.
 
I guess I didn't honor the spirit of the original post. Between the two I'll take the .30-30. I can buy scads and oodles of differently configured ammo for it. I like this versatility.
 
Guess no one has heard of an 30-06, 308 or 270.

Remington make an outstanding 783 or Ruger makes the Ruger American , both in thee calibers for < $300 at Walmart or other box stores.
 
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