If they made me King, I would...

David Scott

New member
The thread on military arms got me thinking of a neat little hypothetical question. Here's the deal:

A diplomatic mission comes to your door and informed you that the hereditary King of the Caribbean island nation of Doyawanna has died, and you are his next of kin. You are going to be made King! A nice deal, since you become chief executive of a peaceful, prosperous country, and live in a huge palace with a household budget of about $10 million a year. There is also a Constitutional provision that guarantees every citizen the right to own any and all arms without interference from the government. The only exceptions are the insane and persons convicted of violent crime. For tourists, you honor carry permits from any jurisdiction.

The island is a tourist paradise, has a strong economy and crime is low because law enforcement has been strict but fair. Tourists love the high-visibilty law enforcement presence, and a lone woman can walk down any street at 3AM without fear of being accosted. The main violent crime threats have been outsiders, smugglers and a couple attempted robberies of the casinos. Despite having a 50-50 population mix of Black and White, racial unrest is not an issue because you have fair representative government and standards of living are high.

One of your first jobs as King is to update the small arms used by the National Protective Service, which acts as police, coastguards, and military (though they have not been in a war in years -- they are a neutral nation). Every able-bodied man and woman between the ages of 18 and 40 is part of the reserve, and they keep their duty weapons in the home. There is also a career force of some 20,000 officers and troops. Your force provides casino security, street level enforcement, patrols the beaches and the harbors. You also run a small prison operation where the inmates work chain gangs to clear roads, repair sea walls and such.

They are currently equipped with Llama .38 Special revolvers, surplus M1 Garands, and M3 .45 caliber "grease guns", average age of all about 20 years. The motto of the armoroers is "In Rust We Trust". Concealment is not an issue since they are a 100% uniformed service. Last year they got brand new Jeep Cherokees as patrol vehicles.

You must choose a new suite of small arms. Consider the mission, the tropical climate, and whatever else seems relevant. Full auto arms are OK; hey, you're the King, you can have what you want. You have to pick three manufacturers for each category, to be field tested for accuracy, reliability and ease of maintenance. You will supervise the tests yourself. Once you have your three candidates, you can also predict the winner.

You must also choose ammo. Caliber is up to you; since Doyawanna is not a Geneva signatory and the force's main mission is policing, hollow points or soft points are acceptable.

The state-owned casinos have had a slow year, so you only have $750 million to equip your 20,000 active duty troops and the 230,000 reservists. There are some contractual advantages to getting everything from one manufacturer, but it's not a huge difference. Other than that, you have no restrictions.

What are your choices, Your Royal Highness?
 
Sounds nice, Your Royalness...
But I'm afraid you'ld have to be booted.
You see, we Americans don't like Kings.
We would have to vanquish you.

OH - King of the islands!

Nevermind...

[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited October 18, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by George Hill:
...
You see, we Americans don't like Kings.
We would have to vanquish you...
[/quote]

I don't know about this statement. Too many "Americans" seem anxious to crown Prince Albert. :mad:
 
First thing I would do is declare war on England for the hell of it! Take that Prince Albert! Just kidding. :D

Need weapons for about 250,000 troops, thats $3000 a person with this years low budget. Figure a one time expenditure for the weapons, then yearly for the ammo, upkeep, and training. Hmmm...

Handguns would be personally owned sidearms. I don't care what you carry as a reservist, and the full-timers should carry what ever they are the most comfortable with. The only deal is if you want to receive free training ammo it has to be .45. NO Junk guns. Gun supervisors will be able to make that call. Take all of the Llama's and throw them in a big warehouse for emergencies. If we get invaded then handguns aren't going to be really that important in the grand scheme of things. And for the folks that carry daily, they will want to carry their own things. All guns are importable to Doyawanna. :)

Rifles, I would take my personal wealth and build a gun company right on the island. Of course my troops would be equipped with my rifles, but we would export them as well. :D

The CTR (Correia Tactical Rifle) would be a thing of beauty and simplicity. Don't laugh I've been thinking about how to build these things for the last few years. I have some really good ideas, that would actually be pretty economical to manufacture. Every gun nut that I've run the full idea across thinks that they would rock. .223 & .308 of course. I would rather not give out the other details just quite yet, because someday I really do want to build them. :D I just quite haven't figured out how to go about it yet.

And if I can't build my own. Then we would test between the Sig 550, Tavor, Galil, G36, FNC, etc. and pick the one that serves us best as our main rifle. Following that we would buy a pile of FALs to serve as DMRs. We would also buy UMPs for subguns, & Remington 870s for shotguns, unless Benelli could cut us a really good deal on the M4 shotgun.
 
Sorry I didn't quite answer the question correctly.

Three to test:

Rifle: Sig 550, FNC, G36-probable winner G36.

DMR: FAL, G3, AR10-Probably FAL.

Subgun: I want a .45 so only the UMP.

Pump (standard) Shotgun: 870, Mossy, Win probably 870.

Issue pistol: Pains me to say this but the winner would probably be the Glock due to the $ and simplicity for general issue to folks who aren't interested in buying there own, but I would let people carry what ever handgun they felt like.

Ammo: 168 gr. .308 FMJ or SP, 55 gr. .223 FMJ or SP, .45 probably .230 gr. Federal Hydro-shoks.
 
Can we have a general discussion thread without bringing the election in, please?

Corriea, thanks for doing the math. I think you need to consider that not every person needs every weapon. You might have one long gun for each two person patrol unit. Up to you. Also, figure that if you're buying guns for 250,000 you will probably get a factory direct discount of 15 - 30% off gun shop retail.

Anyway, I have my own answers to this but I wanted to see what others came up with.
 
David, of course on the reservists I would only be issuing a single rifle to each.

Discount! They better give me one heck of a discount! I'm the King! Hail to the King Baby! :D :D
 
Hmm, I would say the issue pistol would be Glock models 17 and 19, with the 18 as special issue.
Rifles would be AK74's and the variants. They might still rust, but with the money that would be saved, you could afford to put a nicer finish on every one you bought for the kingdom.
Shotguns would be either Remington 870's with marine finish, parkerized Mossberg 590's or Benelli Nova's.
 
While I've no aspirations to be le Roi, I wouldn't mind being Chief Ordnance Officer (kinda like the fabled bumbling "we don't need repeaters" General Ripley of Civil War fame).

OK, if "In Rust we Trust" then I'd suggest the HK UMP and HK 36. Polymer frame, stock, foreends. About the only part which is metal barrel, bolt carrier & bolt and the trigger group. Nice low maintenance for lazy armorers who should have been retired years ago.
 
OK, I decided on one-stop shopping. Here is my shopping basket.

Shotgun (one per two man police car, plus two per coast guard vessel):

HK_M3_Super_90.gif

Heckler & Koch M3 Super 90
Weight: 7.6 pounds (3.45 kg)
Caliber: 12 Gauge OO Buck and slugs
Barrel Length: 19.75 inches (50.16 cm)
Overall Length: 41 inches (104 cm), 31 inches (78.7 cm) with stock folded
Action: Gas Operated or Pump Action Selectable
Mode of Fire: Semi-Automatic or Pump Action
Range: 300 ft (90 m)
Magazine: 8+1 rounds
Cost: $ 1000
=====================

Rifle (standard issue to ground troops including reservists):
HK_G36.jpg


Heckler & Koch G36:
Weight: G36/G36K/MG36: 7.28 lbs (3.3kg) / 6.62 lbs (3.0kg) / 7.87 bs (3.57kg) (empty)
Caliber: 5.56x45mm NATO (.223 remington) 55 Gr soft point
Barrel: G36/MG36: 18.9 inches (47.4 cm) G36K: 12.52 inches (31.5 cm)
Length: Stock in/out: G36/MG36: 29.84/39.29 inches (74.9/98.7 cm); G36K: 24.21/33.78 inches (60.8/84.8 cm)
Action: Gas Operated, Rotating Bolt.
Mode of Fire: Fully Automatic / Semi Automatic
Range: 1333 feet (400 meters)
Magazine: 30 round stick magazine or 100 round drum
==================

Grenade Launcher (one per police substation, coast guard vessel and military platoon):
HK69A1.jpg

Heckler & Koch HK69A1:

Weight: 5.8 lbs (2.62 kg) empty.
Caliber: 40 mm bursting munitions (explosive, tear gas, etc.)
Barrel Length: 13.2 inch (33 cm).
Overall Length: 30 inches (74 cm) or 19 inches (47.5 cm) folded.
Action: break-open action.
Mode of Fire: Single shot only
Range: 1330 ft (400 m).

===============

Pistol (standard issue to all police officers and military officers and sergeants):
HK_USP_Exp.jpg


Heckler & Koch USP:
Weight: 1.88 lbs (.85 kg)
Caliber: .45 ACP 185 Gr. Federal Hydra-Shoks
Barrel: 5.28 inch (13.2 cm)
Action: Double action / Single action adjustable.
Range: 165 ft (50 m)
Payload: 15 + 1, 12 + 1, 12 +1
==============

Submachine Gun (issued to special tactical units, armor crews, coast guard rank and file):
HK_UMP45.gif


Heckler & Koch UMP45:
Weight: 4.63 lbs (2.08 kg) (empty)
Caliber: .45 ACP 185 gr. Cor-Bon +P
Barrel: 7.87 inch (20 cm)
Length: 27 inch (67.5 cm), 17.7 inch (44.25 cm) with folded stock
Action: Unlocked blowback, fires from closed bolt.
Mode of Fire: 3 available: Semi-Automatic Only / Semi-Automatic + Two-Round Burst / Semi-Automatic + Full-Automatic
Rate of Fire: 580 to 700 rpm depending on ammo
Range: 250 ft (76.2 m)
Magazine: 25 / 10 round

==============
Of course, as Commander in Chief, the King has to qualify with all this stuff! As Mel Brooks says, It's good to be the King!

[This message has been edited by David Scott (edited October 18, 2000).]
 
""threats have been..... smugglers ""

What have they been smuggling>?? happiness??
Guns, or drugs maybe??? They're both now legal!!! You see, My administration would not be out trying to protect the world from themselves, the only thing that is outlawed are things that wrongly effect inocent people. We would not have a huge standing army either. Yeah, I like guns and bombs and what-not, but if we are a nuetral country, the only thing to fear is terrorists. I down-size our active troops to 5,000 highly trained professionalls, who serve as cops and border control in times of peace. And only maybe 100,000 reserves, for actuall threats "just in case." With this many fewer troops we can spend all the money on the newwest technology, and all of our soldiers will be trained to the navy seal equivelent :) If any large threat attacked us (saddam and his army of sand-eatin' bast**ds swam over,) the great US of A would protect me like they do for every other 3 man sqauble around the world :D


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IF you're not willing to die for your rights/beliefs, don't try to take mine.
 
David Scott: this is a great thread [darn, why didn't I think of it!!]

The Royal Doyawanna National Protective Service Weapon Trials.
consisting of:
Service Combat Pistol: Sigarms P220/P245, Para Ord P14/P10[stainless], Glock G21/G30 -winner Glock. Considering different hand sizes/etc, reservists or regulars may choose either service size or compac's.

Service Combat Rifle: HK G3 7.62N, Remington M7400-SP [Synth Carbine] 30.06Gov [Surplus ammo on hand consideration?], Armalite AR10A2 Carbine 7.62N -winner AR10A2, AR10T pulls double duty as marksmans weapon.

Subgun: HK UMP 45, La France Specialities M16K 45, IMI Uzi 45 -winner La France M16K
for standardized manual of arms, easier training.

Shotgun: no contest Remington M870 Marine Magnum.

Heavy Weapons: South African Milkor Multi-Shot Grenade Launcher [i.e. giant six-shooter]40mm, 1 per infantry section.

Ammunition: A.P. and exotics [e.g. H.E./W.P.] would be held at assmebly points as overpenetration would be a serious problem on a heavily populated island.All other ammo, body armour, helms, and gear is kept at home, Swiss style.

Surplus [previous generation] arms for school cadet drill purpose, DCM style sales, or emergency reserve. I grew up on a Pacific island [Samoa] so I know about tropical clims, arsenal refinishing with protective coatings would be a must.

Jeep Cherokees are great but in the tropics I'd rather have a Toyota Hilux SR5 D/Cab [esp with the new 3L Prado Diesel Turbo] enough room for the whole fono/village!!!

Correia: pardon my ignorance what does D.M.R stand for [deadly military rifle]?



[This message has been edited by JoshM75 (edited October 19, 2000).]
 
sidearm: EAA witness. 10mm for range and stopping power.
Rifle: FN FAL .308
Sub Gun: Cant luzi with an uzi but already got the 10mm handgun so why not go with an HK in 10mm, sorry i cant remember if its the mp5 or what it is that they make in 10mm.

Shotgun: i would go with spas 12 but they cant take 3 inch magnums, so Rem 870.

and another addition, sniper rifle: rem 700 .308
 
I'll say this David, when you dream, you dream BIG!!! :D

------------------
Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
 
My apologies Josh, I didn't realize that I had abbreviated that the whole time. DMR stands for Designated Marksman Rifle. The concept comes from the Marine Corps (I think) in which one member of a squad is armed with a longer range, scoped rifle. They aren't snipers as they work in concert with the rest of the squad, they have greater range and penetration than the standard gun. The Marines use a modified M-14.
 
Fun fun! :)

Large bore: FAL [7.62]

Small bore: Colt M4 [5.56] or maybe the HK53

Interdiction: Springfield M1A National Match synthetic/stainless bbl. [7.62]

Sidearm: Glock 20/29 [10mm] or maybe USP40/40C [10mm short]

Sub: HK MP5's [9mm] and MP5K-PDW's [also 9mm] (I think a subgun should be very easy to control in full auto, so 9mm it is)

SG: Remington 870 Marine Magnum

Ammo: full contract to Hornady for the whole kingdom: practice, duty, special purpose(tracer, steel-core, etc.)

Optics: full contract to Springfield Armory for all the scopes (and the M1A's); Aimpoint for all the red-dots.

- gabe
 
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