If only one para-military weapon, which one?

Straitshot

New member
I have never really been a para-military weapons person, but would like to own at least one. I have often looked at the M1A but just haven't made up my mind to shell out the bucks for one. Not even sure which model to buy if I decided to since there are so many options, standard, national match, etc. I think I would like the 308 over the 223 because of it's ability to reach out there further. I also would like to keep the cost down without sacrificing accuracy. So is that a good choice or not?
 
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I have several, but if I was to be limited to only one, I think it would be my SC 1903a3, my Garand would be a close second.

Having said that, I'm not giving up any of them.
 
It sounds like you're choosing the gun and caliber before stating exactly what targets are being shot at, and the ranges you plan to engage them.

It also explains why we see 2012's already on the used car lot weeks after they were sold. Didn't work out as a daily driver.

What ranges, what targets? If it's paper on precision, take a longer look at the National Match course, AR15's are dominant. They've run off the big guns because they take less gunsmithing to get more accurate, and precision ammo is just as easy to come by, even incrementally cheaper if reloading. On the firing line, the rapid shot sequence means getting back on target sooner with an AR because there's less recoil to manage.

In the field hunting, the AR actually does fine on America's most popular game, whitetail deer. That's because hunters actually have to SEE the animal in broken woodlands, and getting shots under 300m is predominant. The .30-30 is still America's #1 hunting cartridge for whitetail, and it's been successful for over 100 years precisely because it matches actual engagement ranges, out to 250m. Proof positive you don't need long action .30's.

If it's actually the romance and look of the gun, get an M1 from the CMP, an actual issue, collectible rifle that was used in service. It's the last of it's kind, a government issue weapon, and once gone, the program will likely close down. Uncle Sam won't be offering M14's or M16's, reworked or not. I've already been negligent in not getting them back in the days of mint guns for $350, so I'm going to be the proud owner of the absolute last CMP gun ever sold. Likely I will live long enough to see it, they are already running low.

Then, buy an AR15 to get results, after all, it's the gun that replaced those old '30s era piston guns with higher firepower, lighter weight, and improved battlefield results. Going on 45 years, now, just a few short of being a Curio and Relic that can literally ship to your front door.
 
There are many great old military rifles out there, "para" or not.
When someone says "para" military, I instantly think first of folding-stock weapons for the airborne divisions.

In terms of modern manufactured rifles, I still like the M1A, expensive as it is. The model that most suits me (at 5'8") is the M1A Scout rifle. The standard rifle just feels too long and cumbersome. I dislike the muzzle blast of the shorter "Socom" rifles (and the SOCOM II with it's profusion of rails is even heavier).

The M1A is superb as a long distance rifle and I've watched shooters using them at 500, 700 and 1000m with both scopes and iron sights. That's much further than I can ID a target. For someone living and hunting in a rural area, the .308 will take just about anything in North America.

That said, the AR platform may be more suitable as a "first" rifle. Eugene Stoner's brainchild is more flexible and easier to customize than any rifle you could previously buy. For long range shooting barrels are available out to 22" and 24" with flattop receivers to mount optics. For typical use, the 18-20" barreled rifles can still reach out to 500m. The 16" carbine makes a dandy urban/suburban rifle with quick handling. And there is literally a thousand aftermarket products you can use to customize your AR.

Don't like the 5.56mm? You can replace the upper receiver with one in 6.7SPC or (harder to find now) 6.5 Grendel. Remington's 6.7 SPC provides more hitting power out to 500m and better ballistics in between. For Grizzly country, swap out to the .458 SOCOM cartridge. :p

Older Rifles
I'm with kraigwy when it comes to long distance work. My Smith-Corona 1903A3 sports a 4-12x variable scope and can be accurate well out to 700m (just not in my hands! :D)

A friend has a British Enfield in .303 which I would not want to face. The .303 works well but it's the Enfield's action that allows it to be faster than the 1903 rifle. In the 1960's, Independent India used the Enfield as a model to create a .308 Enfield at the Ishapore arsenal works. The rifle was built to fire .308 NATO ammo and with 147-150 grain FMJ these are good long range shooters (if you can see the small military sights).

The M1 Garand is, of course, a legend. The M1 Carbine is about the lightest rifle I've ever fired, though some call it a long-nosed pistol. For home defense, I'd certainly take the M1 Carbine with a 15 or 30 round magazine full of 110gr soft points.

The older HK 91 and 93 rifles (223 & 308) are excellent weapons, but heavy compared to the AR-15/M-16. FN's FAL likewise is heavy and somewhat unwieldy in urban environments but another proven design.

In terms of a semi-auto that would be my "only" go-to serious-fight rifle, the M1A Scout gets a slight nod over the M1 Garand. And that's only because the magazines are faster to reload than the enbloc clip of the Garand.

If you want a combination light hunting/defense/SHTF rifle, go with the AR-15 platform from Colt, Bushmaster or DPMS. Especially for urban/suburban areas where your likely ranges won't exceed 300m. It's lighter, accurate, ammo is less expensive, supplies and parts are easily available and it can be easily customized to fill multiple roles.
 
I think I would like the 308 over the 223 because of it's ability to reach out there further

Straightshot

There are two kind of gun owners, shooters and collectors. Ancient weapons are the perview of the collector. Nice hanging on the walls and a great peice of history to view. But carring them?????? Not in this day and age.

They are VERY heavy by nature of their purpose and design. (beat the hell out of your enemy with a cheaply made mass produced firearm that is quick to build and slapped together in a short time.) Some can be made to shoot very accurately, but not without a lot of work and expense replacing parts.

If you are serious about the ability to reach out there further, you can not beat the medium to light weight bolt action hunting rifle (non-para-military). Used by snipers in Vietnam (Rem 700's) and even today with the M-24. Not cheap or very light but much lighter than most military weapons.

The basic problem is the weight of the ammo that needs to be carried. Lug around 10 or 15 mags of 30-06 or even 308 all day and you will soon shed then for something lighter (Lead is Lead and that's what the bullets are made of.)

If you are looking for a spray and pray type of gun with more bullets in the magazine that you can actually carry then the AK-47 can't be beat for that purpose but the bullets will still weigh you down.

The advantage of the AR type rifle is that it is a light weight weapon that uses a light weight bullet and you can carry many more rounds (and mags) with it. So depending on your purpose and use. As the saying goes, "pick your poison."

Jim

IMG_1901.jpg
 
The problem with the AR platform is that by the time most people finish "accessorizing" them, they weigh as much, if not more than the M1 Garand. Add the quad rail tube, foregrip, EOtech sight or scope, flashlight and/or laser, bipod, plus other bits you've bumped up the weight considerably. That negates much of the weapon's "advantage".

But if we take that as a guideline, we'd be considerably better off using an FN P90 using the 5.7x28 round.
FNcustom-sbr-ps-90-left.jpg


They are VERY heavy by nature of their purpose and design. (beat the hell out of your enemy with a cheaply made mass produced firearm that is quick to build and slapped together in a short time.) Some can be made to shoot very accurately, but not without a lot of work and expense replacing parts.

Slapped together cheaply? Are you making this claim about...
M1Garand.jpg


or
M1903A3.jpg


We can argue the principle of a light rifle with small bore light ammo all week. It's been proven that the light rifle/ammo concept is true. Lighten them and your soliders can carry more.

The downside is that they often negate that advantage by using more ammo instead. The light bullets are more prone to wind & barrier deflection, fail to penetrate medium intermediate barriers and fail to put down a determined adversary. This is one reason for the existence of the 6.7SPC round and the return of the M14 to many front-line units.

Had John C. Garand had his way, the M1 Garand would have remained a 7mm (.276 cal) rifle fed by a 10-round clip, with less recoil and better accuracy.

When it comes to carrying, the 1903A3 Springfield isn't much of a burden. I've carried that out hunting for miles (albeit not with a full mil pack and 240 rounds).
 
para military? use same caliber/rifle as what the military currently use, then parts/support/maintenance will be no issue.
If .308, then M14 (22" loaded composite or 18" squad composite)
If .223, the M4/M16/AR15.
 
That's a tough one. I like my MiA Super Match, or the HK91. I just like the .308 cartridge and have three nice rifles that are chambered for it. Otherwise there's the RRA NM LAR15 5.56 with it's EOTech XPS2-0 and GG&G irons for optics. It's a nice rifle, though not much lighter than the M1A, or HK91. If the cartridge becomes more popular and widely available I have a 6.8 SPC AR platform with a 20" barrel that is a decent compromise between the 5.56 and the .308. It would be my go to rifle provided I could feed it. It has a Leupold 3-9x40 AR scope mounted on a GG&G quick release.
 
Straitshot said:
I have often looked at the M1A but just haven't made up my mind to shell out the bucks for one. Not even sure which model to buy if I decided to since there are so many options, standard, national match, etc. I think I would like the 308 over the 223 because of it's ability to reach out there further. I also would like to keep the cost down without sacrificing accuracy. So is that a good choice or not?

The M1A would be a great choice. I would recommend the "loaded" model. There is a lot of surplus nato ammo available so shooting is affordable.

Another possibility would be the .308/7.62 platform AR. The AR10 with two uppers can cover a lot of shooting situations. A 21" upper for long range and a 16" upper for shorter ranges and less weight.

How about the nostalgia of shooting the M1 Garand? These are very affordable from CMP, plenty of surplus ammo on the market.

If you would like less weight and long range then consider a AR15 in 6.5Grendel. A 18" Grendel well be lightweight and very capable of long range shooting.
 
If it's going to be your one and only make it a civilian, semi-automatic M14 type rifle.

They are available with 16.25", 18.0", 18.5" and 22.0" barrels and there are
all sorts of battle proven stocks and accessories available to consumers.




.
 
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I'm a little surprised at how many folks have said they would pick an M1A.

If I could choose only one para-military weapon I would have to go with the SCAR 17. It has an extremely accurate hammer forged barrel chambered in .308, it is very light weight and with its folding stock has a very compact form factor. The adjustable comb on the stock is also a very nice feature.

I own an M1A, built by Fulton Armory; I enjoy shooting it but feel it's certainly a dated design. Long, heavy, retractable nothing, not modular, and has mediocre at best ergonomics by today's battle rifle standards. I can't imagine having to carry it on a 20 mile "approach march". I do enjoying bench rest shooting with it and it always seems to attract the attention of the older guys at the range. I usually offer to let them try it out. As a rifle, I would say the nostalgia that surrounds it is beyond reproach similar to America's love for the 1911. However, I believe technology has move on and there are now newer more attractive offerings.

flame me... flame me... haha :D
 
By "para military" I presume you mean a modern version, and not surplus. The M1A is on my "get someday list", I trained on it in BCT, know how it performs and what it can do.
 
I have two words for you. Just two words.

DSA. FAL.

M1A is a civie version of a military legend, yes. But the FAL is simpler to takedown and clean, easier to scope, and more durable. Its not as accurate as an AR10 or even an M1A, but you said this was a first and only military-style weapon for a civilian and I'm guessing that means you are not experienced or a collector. The FAL is what you're looking for.
 
Gotta agree with BillCA...

BillCA said:
"...If you want a combination light hunting/defense/SHTF rifle, go with the AR-15 platform from Colt, Bushmaster or DPMS. Especially for urban/suburban areas where your likely ranges won't exceed 300m. It's lighter, accurate, ammo is less expensive, supplies and parts are easily available and it can be easily customized to fill multiple roles."
If I'm only going to own one para-military firearm and I'm going to be looking to that rifle to fill roles that include -
  • general shooting and reloading
  • personal defense (in any situation)
  • light hunting
  • TEOTWAWKI etc.
...that's going to need to be one versatile rifle.

My choice would be a Colt SP901 --

http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtRifles/SP901.aspx

Like any compromise, it may not be the ideal firearm for any of the above applications individually, but if the challenge is to identify ONE rifle that would be adequate in all those applications, my choice would be the Colt SP901.
 

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Thanks for all the replies. Lots of good info. My time in the service was in the Navy running up and down the Vietnam coast refueling other ships. The weapons we had on board ship were Grands and BARs. In boot camp we qualified with Grands. I have always liked the M14 although I have never shot one. I have had a love afair with the Old West since a boy so consequently most of my guns are from the Old West genre with the exception of a bolt action hunting rifle and a Ruger #1 I hunt with.

A good friend had a Colt AR15 that I shot once and it was a lot of fun and I have considered an AR10.

I am not going to say my gun buying days are over but they have slowed down considerably with the economy as it is and such. I am also thinking about retirement in the next year or so. I guess that is why I am trying to decide on which gun. Before I can no longer justify these types of expenses I want to get that one military style weapon I have always thought I would like to have.

Anyway, I truly appreciate all the replies as they have given me a lot to think about.
 
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