Identifying the caliber and other info on this gun

C

candlejackstraw

New member
I just picked up what I believe is a spandau gew 88. Its labeled 1890 on the reciever and had a crown with an s over it


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Be wary of the information I give you as it may not be true. If it is an 1888 Commission Rifle, and it has an "S" over the crown, then it is most likely a Gewher 1888/05, in that it has been updated to fire the more potent 7.92x57 IS Cartridge, over the M/88 Cartridge. It should have a bore diameter of .323 and you should be able to chamber and fire 8mm Mauser (8x57 IS/JS) Ammo, and it should also be able to accept a standard Mauser/Gewher 98 Stripper Clip instead of the 1888 Mannlicher variety. Good luck with your rifle!
 
Mosin gave you good information, I just want to add, do take it to a gunsmith and have it examined if you want to shoot it. Metal crazing, cracking, fatigue, worn bolt cams, etc., etc. are all things that need to be looked for. When a weapon gets to be over 100 years old, treat it like an antique and verify it's safe usability.
 
"...should have a bore diameter of .323..." Only if the barrel was changed after 1905. It'd be .318" before then and does NOT use current 8mm Mauser. However, I think the 'S' stamp indicates it has been changed to the .323" barrel. Easily confirmed by slugging the barrel.
Hammer a cast .30 cal(close enough) bullet or suitably sized lead fishing sinker though the barrel, from the chamber end, using a 1/4" brass rod and a plastic mallet, then measuring with a micrometer. Way easier to do than type. snicker.
 
The leade was lengthened but the bore diameter was kept.

This allowed the early 150 grain 7.92x57js with the short bearing surface to swage down.

The modern 7.92x54jss should never be used. It's much hotter than either the M88 or js (is) loadings.

Regards,

Josh
 
That is correct. The original 1888 rifling proved too shallow and was rapidly washed out. The Germans gradually increased the groove depth, but finally decided to increase the bullet diameter and the groove diameter, which they did c. 1905. (The groove (and bullet) diameter was increased from .318" to .323"; the bore diameter remained .311".) I have read and have said that Model 1898 rifles with the old barrel dimensions were re-barrelled but someone demanded absolute documented proof of that and I don't have any, so I will say only that it seems to make sense.

In any case, the old 1888 rifles were not rebarrelled; those in good condition had a new reamer run in, expanding the leade diameter and chamber neck diameter. The latter is critical. If the chamber neck does not allow the case neck to expand and release the bullet, pressure goes way up.

The conversions of Model 1888 rifles to use the new cartridges and clips was done in Germany for the German war reserve, and many were issued to German reserve units during WWI. After WWI, many of those converted rifles were sold to Turkey, where they received Turkish markings; many collectors assume that the conversions were done in Turkey, but as far as I can determine that is not true - they were done in Germany.

Jim
 
Just some clarification, the S marking indicates the reworked leade for the Spitzer bullet, but not necessarily the conversion to stripper clips from the old Mannlicher style en-bloc clip. For that conversion there needed to be a small cut made in the front receiver ring, which is evident in the picture. One of my Kar 88 has the S conversion done but still uses the old en-bloc clip.
As for the use of modern ammo and the confusion about diameters, the Germans used old .318 barrels with all three types of bullets, M/88, 8x57 IS (WWI, 153 gr), and 8x57 IsS (WWII, 197 gr) without differentiation and without losing large number of troops to exploding guns. Still, careful load selection is recommended as you're shooting a nearly 120 year old rifle from the beginning of the smokeless powder era with enough issues that the Germans replaced it within 10 years with the Mauser design.
 
In practice, the 8x57js was fired only in converted rifles, because it was issued only in the 98 type "stripper clips". Those clips could not be used in an unconverted rifle since there is no clip guide and no way to hold the cartridges in the magazine. The old 8x57j ammo was issued only in the '88 clips and those could not be used in the converted rifles.

Jim
 
Of course, the Germans never issues JS ammo, it was all IS ;).
Found an interesting thread here on the Gunboards .
It points out that the cut-out on the converted /05 was not for the Spitzer bullets but to use old M/88 round nose bullets in stripper clips. The 8x57IS is actually short enough to fit in an unmodified receiver. Also, the "S-conversion" in most cases didn't actually involve any changes to the rifle, it simply verified that the case mouth was in spec for the S cartridge, only some very narrow M/88 chambers needed to be reamed for the new cartridge.
There's also a mentioning of 88-type guns rebarreled in South America with Czech barrels; those barrels are 316 groove diameter and truly dangerous when used with 323 bullets. Unfortunately the Czech markings are under the barrel shroud and invisible without taking the gun apart, so slugging might still be appropriate unless you're absolutely sure about the history of your rifle.
 
Hammer a cast .30 cal(close enough) bullet or suitably sized lead fishing sinker though the barrel, from the chamber end, using a 1/4" brass rod and a plastic mallet, then measuring with a micrometer. Way easier to do than type. snicker.
Click to expand...

Cerrosafe is a good way to do this.
 
Not really danger, just a need to figure out what you have. In that it's no different from many older guns that might or might have not undergone changes you're not aware of. I once picked up a beautiful numbers matching Kar 98k, was great until I checked the head space. The gage just disappeared into the chamber - someone had reamed it badly to 8mm-06, without marking the gun as such. Slug the barrel, check the headspace, and select a suitably loaded ammo and you'll have as safe a rifle as any from that time frame.
 
MM said:

Just don't want anybody to blow themselves up because I said something stupid!
Click to expand...

I find that, generally, folks who will blow themselves up tend to blow themselves up regardless of what is said.

Regards,

Josh
 
It's hard to know what info is correct and what isn't, but contrary to some of the posts here, I have always been under the impression the guns with the notched receivers were modified for spitzer point bullets, and that the "S" indicates a slight lengthening of the throat to accommodate the newer bullet. The bore diameter allegedly remained at .318.

At any rate, I would be reluctant to fire a Gew 88 unless I loaded my own reduced loads (with proper diameter bullet of course).

I had an 88 many years ago that I got in a Woolworth's in Florida that was a Turkish Ankara rebuild/reissue. I have no idea if the Turks rebarreled them with .323 barrels or not, as I was not really enthusiastic about shooting it.:D
 
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Yes, the designation is "IS" rather than "JS", but the latter term is so common that the issue is a nitpick rather than any serious concern. The Germans themselves used the terms "J" and "JS" on both ammo boxes and in catalogs, and the RWS-Rottweil web site uses the "JS" terminology. As to what the German army issued, it was neither. Those terms, along with "IRS" and "JRS" are commercial terms. The Imperial army used the term "8mm"; the WWII term was "7.9mm" without any J's or S's or R's.

Jim
 
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